I do not believe in God.

Good for you

Do you believe in God?

What do you mean by God?

God is someone who creates the world, is it not?

If this is the definition of God, then I also am not inclined towards such a God

But you call yourself a religious person?

Yes of course

But you say that you are not inclined towards God?

I replied that if God is defined as one who creates, I am disinclined towards such a God.

So what does God do?

Why should you know what does God do?

So that I can understand what type of God are you inclined towards.

Should you therefore not ask “What God is” instead of “What God does”?

Sorry – do not understand.

OK – if you ask me – who I am, what will I say?

You will say – I am a male, resident of Mumbai, I am a family man having a wife and two kids, etc.

Is this really who I am?

Of course, what else are you?

I also work in a Bank, I am a son of my parents, I like reading Adhyatmic books, I have a sister who stays in USA, etc.

Of course, you are all these also. But does this have to do with my question on God?

You have described God by one function which God does just like one of things I do is banking. But the God I am religiously inclined towards is not a God who is a doer of one function. God does many functions but “What God is” is more fascinating than the functions that God performs.

Fair point – so then describe all the functions that God performs.

In Indian traditions, there are three functions at a very high level – Creation, Preservation and Constructive change. But once again, as indicated by my example above, what is more fascinating is not “What God does” but “What God is”.

OK – fine. Point taken that my initial definition is inadequate. So tell me “What God is”.

Indian traditions describe God as having three clear aspects or attributes – God is Sat, God is Chit and God is Ananda. Sat means existence, Chit means conscious and Ananda means Blissful. God is therefore nothing else but a Conscious force that really Exists which is always Blissful within itself.

OK – this is high. How do I understand this better?

Did you watch Star Wars? There is a famous dialogue within the movie stating – “Let the Force be with you”.

Yes – I remember this dialogue.

What was referred to as the Force (to make it look scientific) is nothing else but a Force that is actually “Sat – Chit – Ananda” in Indian traditions. I will refer to this force as Mahadeva or Vishnu or Srimata.

Interesting. But what difference does it make if one calls this force as God or Vishnu?

Vishnu means that which is present in all or Deva means one what shines eternally on its own. These words that have come out of the Indian tradition have a certain meaning that probably Force has in English. I do not understand the etymology of the word God and will therefore prefer Vishnu or some other Indian name that I can relate with. Why use words that I am unable to connect with in terms of its inner meaning. Most of the Indian literature uses words or names character in a certain context that has a certain meaning relevant to the context. For example, no other civilization has multiple names of the Sun and in the Indian books, the most apt word relevant to the context is used to explain the concept.

If it works for you, who am I to challenge you on this front? But I still do not understand this idea of “Force”.

OK. Let me put this another way. What is स्वभाव of an individual person? What are our “primal drives” that define or sustain our life?

I do not understand the question.

What I meant is – what are the primary forces behind all the various actions that we do.

Hunger and emotions.

I will say that there is something more primal; hunger and emotions come much later.

Kindly elaborate. 

Let us take kids. Kids at a young age are not influenced by societal and parental conditioning. If you take this as true, it becomes evident when one watches them that even they display certain primal drives. It is just that in their case, it is exhibited more clearly while it gets covered up among adults.

So what are these ‘primal’ drives or the Forces?

First, even a kid has a fear of death even though he may not have been taught about death. This natural fear that comes spontaneously is the need for “Existence” that is innate in all of us. Second, a kid is curious. He wants to know everything. Like a sponge, he wants to keep learning and absorbing. For some lucky people, this learning streak continues at a later age too. This need is an expression of “Consciousness” where our consciousness seeks to know everything is thus another innate need. We want to be ‘conscious’ of everything. Third, if a kid cries, everyone including the kid loses peace. Crying or unhappiness is seen as unnatural but if the kid is quite or smiling, everyone is at peace. Thus, “bliss or happiness” is the third natural expression. Now the ब्रह्म is described as सत्-चित्-आनन्द स्वरूप meaning that “Existence-Consciousness-Bliss is the essence of ब्रह्म. And this ब्रह्म, when it takes a body is also expresses its innate स्वभाव through the body too. So the primal force in all of us is nothing else but सत्-चित्-आनन्द. However, owing to various reasons, this ‘primal’ and innate expression of ourselves gets vitiated and we become what we are.

Are you saying that I am nothing else but सत्-चित्-आनन्द?

This is the idea conveyed by the ancient Indian view. And the purpose of life is to regain this primal orientation which is a state of full freedom and complete happiness. However, this is not easy owing to we being mixed up with our own mental inclinations cultivated and we lose ourselves to this confusion which is our human body and mind.

At an intellectual level, I can understand and appreciate this but if my own so-called ‘real’ identity and that of Vishnu is one and the same, I am not clear why should one pray to Vishnu?

Do not pray to Vishnu. Who told you to pray to Vishnu?

The whole society does – is it not?

There are many in the society who do not pray. You are free to listen to them.

Why do you pray?

Sorry but what do you mean by prayer?

Prayer means one who bows down to Vishnu to seek a favour.

If that is your definition of prayer, then I do not pray.

Oh come on – you are merely playing with words. You do Puja right? Is this not prayer?

I do not know what prayer stands for but Puja refers to a process where one attempts to make a connection with Vishnu. To give a simple example, when wifi on my phone is turned on, this wifi connection links up with the wifi signal from the router and connection is made. When I try to do Puja, I first do “Prana-Prathista” of the stone idol in front of me and invite Vishnu into the idol. Once Prana Prathista is done, I attempt to make a connection of myself with this deity.

Do not give me nonsense. People pray because they are fearful and prayer therefore is a response to meet their hidden demands. You cannot give me a load of bull to glamorise is silly ritual.

Hahahaha – All views are welcome.

Oh Come on!! Answer my question properly.

What is your question?

People do prayer do make demands to their deity. Is this not why we pray to God… or Vishnu or donkey or any name??

I will not deny that many people indeed do this.

Why people? Be honest and tell me if you have yourself not made demands to your deity?

Yes I have.

See – it proves.

Proves what?

That fearful people pray to an unknown entity to somehow get their petty desires materialize.

It merely proves that many people do indeed sit in front of the deity for placating their desires. But does that change what Puja really signifies as stated in the scriptures?

Even if your scriptures state noble things, what difference does it make to what people really do?

As a rational person, do you not believe that we must pursue the truth even though you are in a minority? Did Copernicus not state that the earth moves around the Sun even though no one believed him?

What are you trying to say?

All I am saying is – as rational persons, we must focus on the truth and not just follow others like a herd mentality.

I do not follow the others – I do not pray.

I am proud of your achievement; does this lead you to closer to truth?

What truth? Why should I know the truth?

There is no mandate to know the truth. If you are not really interested in pursuit of truth, why do you ask so many questions?

I asked these questions to tell you that your actions are foolish. Beyond this, I do not care.

Does it matter if you convince me that I am foolish? Suppose I am convinced, does that make the world a better place or does that improve my life? By removing my Aastha towards a certain deity but by not replacing this with something better, are you not creating a vaccum in my life – do they do say that an “Idle mind is Devil’s workshop? I can accept your views if you give a counter-view that is more rational and helps me. Mere indulgence in reverse-psychology is a waste of time for both of us.

M reverse-views may not make you a better person directly but at least indirectly it may be beneficial since it will rid the world of superstitions.

OK – in which case, we can stop this conversation. But realize that at the end of this conversation, you have not even attempted to understand what I do, why I do but you have merely shared your opinion as a one-sided conversation. Is this a dialogue or a monologue?

Ok – fair point. I come back to my original question. This Sat.. Chit… whatever, where does this person exist and what does He do?

Very good. Vishnu is everywhere.

Now you start again – how can Vishnu be everywhere?

Let me ask you a counter-question. Why are you able to breathe?

We live because of Oxygen and Carbon dioxide within the atmosphere.

Are these present everywhere on Earth?

Yes of course.

If Oxygen is found everywhere on Earth, why is it difficult to imagine that whatever reality we call Vishnu can be present everywhere.

I am unable to imagine this.

Imagination cannot be the basis for truth especially if imagination is not imaginative enough!!! Hahaha

Agree. But that makes Vishnu very subtle.

Precisely – “subtle” or SOOKSHMA is one of the names of Vishnu in the Vishnu Sahasranama. And the subtle cannot be seen with our eyes just like bacteria cannot be seen without a microscope.

Is this the reason why we are unable to see Vishnu?

Yes – what is subtle cannot be seen unless we also develop subtle eyes. In the Gita, in the eleventh chapter, Krishna also gives Arjuna special eyes and only after Arjuna receives these eyes, he is able to see the Vishwarupa of Krishna.

But what is the proof that such a Vishnu really exists?

What kind of proof will you need to accept the truth?

I need to see Vishnu in operation. But you will say that I cannot see owing to limitation of my eyes.

Hahaha – you are correct. Do we teach theoretical physics to a person who is a toddler? Till the toddler learns alphabets, basics of science, basics of physics, etc and develops the required intelligence, how can the brain accommodate the highest of all truths? Brain has to develop a certain level of evolution to understand subtle truths – that is the way for any knowledge and Adhyamta Gyan is no different.

But there must be some proof, is it not?

As per ancient Indian knowledge systems, there are only three kinds of proof that a human relies on for any branch of knowledge. These three are 1) Direct perception or Pratyaksha Pramana, 2) Inference or Anumana and 3) Knowledge from a trusted source like a Guru or scriptures known as Aagama. There is nothing in the world that seeks a proof beyond these three sources.

In that case, which proof proves existence of Vishnu?

All three are possible. For example, when Vivekananda was young, he used to listen to lectures by all sorts of intellectuals about Paramatma. At the end of the lecture, he used to ask all these intellectuals – Have you seen the Paramatma you so eloquently talk about? They replied in the negative and Vivekananda used to leave disappointed. But when he met Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and asked the same question, the answer he got is YES OF COURSE, JUST LIKE I AM SEEING YOU, I SEE THE MOTHER.

What are you saying? Ramakrisha may have been lying.

Hahaha – Vivekananda was also a very well read and articulate person. Therefore, he also did not believe Ramakrishna immediately and put his Guru to numerous tests for a period of next five years. At the end of this period, he got convinced as he started getting experiences of divinity himself thanks to his Guru. You must understand that Vivekananda is not a pushover but a very rational and intelligent person of his age. And with all this intellect, he eventually got the message of the higher force above us all. Once he got this message, he became a full blown Sanyasa and spread this message throughout the rest of his life.

But you have mentioned that my eyes are that of a toddler. So which other method of proof is available with me?

You can either infer from the way the world operates or make an assumption that there must be one sensible force that seems to be driving the world. So if the laws of physics are operating consistently, there must be some force that is making this possible. Laws of Physics seem to ensure continuity, predictability, etc in the way the Universe operates and if the basic laws are themselves not stable, how can one even do learn? Imagine the world when gravity operates only in the mornings but not in the evenings or if the Sun does not rise every day, etc.

The world is merely an accident – that is all.

What is the rational basis of this argument?

Well, there is none expect that I am unable to prove the presence of an intelligent principle behind the operation of the world.

Fair point. But I will give a simpler example – are you aware of life coming from non-life? A plant gives birth to another plant or a living being to another but there is no example of furniture “accidently” converting into a tree. Do you agree? One can reasonably conclude therefore that life can come from life or non-life can also come from life (e.g., furniture from plants) but there is no rational basis to state that life can come from non-life – the burden of proof in this case is more on the person who makes this statement to prove that life can come from non-life since it is irrational (at least based on our experience of life thus far).

I agree but there is cutting end research happening about laboratory cultivated DNA or clones being made.

Have you seen these experiments yourself or have you studied these experiments yourself to reach the conclusion that all these creations are completely from synthetic compounds or from artificial chemical reactions?

No – I merely read some articles in the paper.

The papers could be lying. Hahaha. Why do you trust a paper?

Because some of these articles are from reputed scientific journals and I trust these sources.

Is your trust not blind in that case?

I trust a reputed source. What is wrong in that?

That is precisely the third type of proof I mentioned above – Aagama where you base your trust either on scriptures like Upanishads or from a Guru like Ramakrishna Paramahamsa who has had a Devi-experience.

But I do not know this Guru?

Do you know NASA or people working within NASA? So what are you basing your trust on?

Are you saying I should not trust NASA but trust an illiterate Guru!!!

Hahaha – this is again a wrong track. Given your state, there is no choice but to trust a third party. All of us do this and this trust does not make us less rational even in normal life. As they say, a baby learns the maximum during the first 6 years when he fully relies on his mother to learn about the ways of the world – the moment the baby starts using his or her own mind, the learning progression reduces drastically. I am sure you are aware of this research finding. Trust is key in learning and trust does not make us irrational. This much must be obvious to any rational person.

Another example – do you know that there are even debates on whether man has gone to the moon and there are a lot of theories called moon-hoax theory which claim that man going to moon is the biggest lie of the 20^th century. So whom do you trust?

So you are saying that we base our learning only on trust – it is so irrational!!!

Nooooo – the basic principle that works is “Trust and Verify”.

I do not understand. How does one verify?

Look – Indian traditions which you call today as Hinduism or Buddhism or Jainism, etc are all experiential religions. They are not faith based or belief based but push the adherents to conduct experiments. These experiments are referred to in the Yoga literature or the Upanishads or the Puranas, etc.

Hey – hold on. Yoga is exercise for good health. How can one know Vishnu through exercise?

Hahaha – Yoga is not an exercise based regimen. The physical exercises known as Asana are merely one stage in our journey to know the ultimate truth. One of the premier Yoga literature is Yoga Patanjali which has 195 Sutras out of which only 3 refer to Asanas. Rest of the literature is about how to achieve union with the highest reality. Yoga or Adhyatma approaches listed by Adi Shankara are actually experimental books that seek the adherents to conduct multiple experiments and slowly evolve the mind higher and higher.

Can you describe these experiments?

The Puja ritual is an experiment, the Yoga Asanas is an experiment, doing Bhajans is an experiment, doing Japa is an experiment, meditation is an experiment, doing charity is an experiment, vegetarianism is an experiment, doing fasting on special days like Ekadasi is an experiment, etc

Oh come on!!! I know of many illiterate people who do Bhajans or do Puja everyday. They are no more closer to Vishnu than you and me. In fact, I would say that I am a far better individual than many of them. In fact, rituals are dumb. How can an educated person like you support rituals? I am shocked.

Hahaha. Do all people working as scientists in a scientific establishment really do science and are scientific? Are all teachers of science really scientific and objective in their lives? Just because someone says they are scientific or someone has read science in school – does that make them REALLY scientific in all aspects of their life?

Agree – but rituals are dumb. How can chanting Narayana 1000 times take me closer to Vishnu? If I chant donkey 10000 times, will a donkey appear in front of me?

Hahaha – Yes they might.

Shut up.

More seriously, just like all people may have learnt science in schools or working in scientific establishments, they are not scientific in their approach to life, all people who utter the word Vishnu may not be religious. At least, do you accept this argument?

It is a fine argument, but…

Look – even Ravana was a perfect and intense Shiva Bhakta but had to be killed by Vishnu. There is also a Hindu Muhavara – “Muh May Ram, Bagal May Churi”. To really learn about Adhyatma, you must first have a genuine thirst for the highest knowledge. With this thirst, you must approach a learned Guru who is evolved and then read the right kinds of books like those by Adi Shankara or the Upanishads, etc. There are also reams of literature on presence in Paramatma in ancient Indian literature and once you read them, you will understand that the ancients have asked far more genuine questions on this topic than the questions that we are asking. Keeping this questioning attitude which is more oriented towards postive questioning (rather than negative banter), if you are really focused and hungry, Vishnu or Mahadeva or Srimata will pave the way for you to expand yourself and such expansion will eventually lead you to truth.

So rituals are good.

Yes of course. Rituals done with the right intend of mind, with knowledge of the scriptures and under the guidance of a learned Guru will definitely take you closer to truth, the ultimate reality.

You mentioned about vegetarian food – why should I eat vegetarian food? Even plants have life and eating plants also involve killing.

This whole world is designed in such a way that something has to eat something else to survive. This is indeed the way of the world. However, man is the only animal that has evolved suitably to reach the Divine. Our ancients have found out that sticking to vegetarian food helps the mind acquire that subtlety that is necessary to acquire higher knowledge. However, even a glutton vegetarian will not acquire this subtlety in the mind; one has to eat vegetarian food that is sufficient and not indulge beyond this. In the 17th Chapter of the Gita, Krishna talks about Sattwic food to Arjuna. Further, this same question is asked by Yudhistira to Bheeshma in the Shanti Parva of the Mahabharata and Bheeshma replies that even though non-vegetarian food is more tasty and exciting, it creates a love for food to such an extent that it gives more push to Tamoguna and Rajoguna Gunas within our mind. However, to move towards higher knowledge or expansion, we need to give more push to Sattwaguna aspect of our mind and hence Sattwic vegetarian food is encouraged. This is again an experiment done by our ancients which has worked very well and there is no reason to question this foolishly. Besides, is it also not fashionable these days to turn vegetarian globally – hahaha. It is food that makes us who we are. Our character, our taste, our behaviour, etc is hugely influenced by food that we take. Therefore, being a mere vegetarian is not enough since Rajasic or Tamasic food is equally harmful even though it is vegetarian. Equally, if one must consider oneself blessed if born in a vegetarian family since Paramatma has given us a good ecosystem in which we grow up. To shed this merely because some other friends eat non-vegetarian food or to cater to taste buds is fine but you are merely making it difficult for yourself to know the subtlest truths as conveyed by Indian scriptures. If you are not interested in gaining higher wisdom articulated in the Indian way, then you can eat anything. Equally, in a practical sense also, vegetarian food is available far more easily in any part of the world than was the position a few decades back – so why question a good tradition using a reverse-psychology mindset?

OK – it is reasonable logic. But when you referred to experiments, you mentioned “Trust and Verify” – what does this mean?

It means that you trust our scriptures like the Upanishads. These scriptures are nothing else but actually books where the experiments of our Rishis are written. They have shared the approach of experiments as well as outcomes of these experiments. All we have to do is to follow this guidance and verify if this works for us. If it does, one can get more intense but if this does not, you move to another scripture, which is more in tune with your inclinations. Over time, if you are genuine, the whole nature will lay herself open to your intentions and will assist you in reaching your end goal.

All of the above is fine but why should I even strive to learn about Vishnu? I am doing hard work, earning for my family or take care of kids and grandparents, enjoying myself watching movies, etc. Why should I stop all these fun activities and focus on this boring subject?

Hahaha – Do not bother actually. There is no need to learn about Vishnu, do any rituals, chant prayers, etc. Just like a person educated in science may be satisfied running his father’s bakery business and be happy, one can remain happy doing what you are doing/ not doing. However, just like the bakery business person does not belittle science even though he is not a practicing scientist, can you also not talk about Vishnu or rituals or prayers about which you have no clue about and know little about?

OK – fair point. I am giving views on something that I have no clue about. But the experiments will mean giving up a fair deal of fun in life. Why should I give-up these joys?

There is giving up in all aspects of life. When one is watching a movie, one is giving up playing cricket. When one is playing cricket, one is giving up spending time with family. When one is with family, one is giving up the joy of being with friends. When a boy becomes a teenager, he is giving up his childhood. When a boy is a married person, he is giving up his free ways. When a man retires, he is giving up office life. There is “giving up” happening in all our actions.

Equally, one always “gives-up” the lower to acquire the higher – is this not what any rational person will do? So what is “lower” and what is “higher”? This is a puzzle before all of us. Adhyatma claims (and I will use the word claims deliberately) that it will lead to highest knowledge. Why not orient our life for the ultimate since in this situation, our joys are the maximum. Why restrict oneself to joys of living in a well when joys of living in a river are calling us? Why restrict our joys to living in a river when the joys of an ocean are calling us? One is only giving up for something better – that is all.

Fine logic – in that case, can you please convey clearly the benefit of knowing the Paramatma? If there is no benefit, why pursue the knowledge?

Is there any material benefit for scientists to know about the origin of the universe? Life can go on without knowing this but still they are pursuing, is it not? Similarly, there will be a few people who would like to pursue the ultimate knowledge of all streams of knowledge. Why should the whole society not be excited enough to pursue such a knowledge or positively encourage others who are pursuing this knowledge?

I am still unable to see the benefit.

OK – let me put this another way. As per Indian traditions, our real state is that of Sat Chit Ananda. We are in fact the very Vishnu going around the earth. We are living this life owing to ignorance of our real nature. It is as if we are living a life of a drama believing that this drama is real. But the drama character is not our real nature – our real nature is that of Vishnu itself. We are therefore pursuing this knowledge so eventually know our expansive, subtle and ultimate nature. Once you reach this state, there is nothing else that needs to be known since you know everything that is worth knowing.

But is it not impossible to know the ultimate in our short life span?

The same question was asked by Arjuna in the Gita – Krishna replied that there is no loss since one will reborn in circumstances that will enable us to continue this exploration path in our next life. No work is every lost – there is no loss really.

Come on – do you believe in this rebirth nonsense?

This is a fundamental proposition within Indian traditions. Even in the modern day world, there are enough experiments being undertaken which are sympathetic to this axiom. Besides, this is again the truth conveyed in our scriptures which we are to follow with Shraddha or faith to reach the ultimate truth.

Can we be a Hindu without this re-birth nonsense?

Your cup is full. You have too many opinions. You have not explored the pursuit in truth with any seriousness thus far, you do not undertake rituals, you do not undertake Japa, you do not have Bhakti towards any deity. All you probably do, and even this may not be true really, is work hard in office and party hard in weekends. If you are happy with these, do not bother about Paramatma. Just like one learns music by practicing the Svaras and Sruti as fundamental axioms, one must approach a discipline with an open mind accepting the basic axioms of the scriptures as the basis. You can reject any axiom only after years of practice and following the disciplines of the study. If after experiment, you are surer that this axiom is wrong, your rejection makes sense. But before this state, any rejection by you may be deemed as frivolous and does not deserve any sympathy or support.

Oops!!! That was rude…. But your point is well made. Are there people who really view the subject or topic of the ultimate in the way you refer to it?

There are indeed many people – which is why you have so many Ashrams in India and abroad. However, most of the people even in these places are Sadhakas and like all normal people, they may fall as they are pursuing the ultimate. But that does not mean that the highest truth itself does not exist or that all Ashrams are places of evil. Do not judge the others since we do not know how each person thinks inside their minds despite acting funny outside. Be rational. Make like-minded friends who are equally serious about this topic. Read books recommended by people who are already on this path. Read the stories of the great ancient Indian or non-Indian saints. And above all, always trust your rational judgement and keep it alert and intelligent. Shankara’s writings are extremely rational and you will be surprised by the extent of rationality advocated by Adi Shankara. Do not make friends with people who are harmful to your choice of pursuit or who would like to keep you focussed on movies and food ONLY instead of personal expansion. Cultivate a good Sat Sangh (meaning friendship of the noble) and just be on the path. If you are sincere and honest, the world may not notice this but Vishnu will surely notice this and He Himself will pave the way for your pursuit. If you trust me on this, this can be a good starting point to an exciting and adventurous journey.

Fine – I am broadly in sync with where you are coming from. I have one last question. Can you tell me the benefit really of an Adhyatmic approach to life?

As I mentioned earlier, the Adhyatmic journey is a wonderful adventure. It takes us slowly but surely to our own REAL nature. It is a world view that has been the focus of ancient Indian thought. As we make material progress in our life, we grow higher and higher, we experience multiple joys. At such a stage, it is important that we are rooted in reality. Just like a building is as strong as its foundation, our foundation is deepened by making our life equally oriented towards Art, poetry and most importantly, study of Adhyatma. On the strong foundation of Adhyatma,  no event in our life can shake us.

As we move closer and closer to our own REAL nature, one experiences full control of his or her own life. When a question is asked that what is the difference between Krishna and us when both of us are born as humans, the difference is really that Vishnu has Maya under his control when born as Krishna while you and me are actually in the control of Maya – that is the only difference.

Unlike a normal person life where despite having riches or happiness, there is a lot of uncertainty leading to fear, life of an Adhyatmic person is a life where this person is in control. It does not mean that no difficult events occur in their lives – it means that despite the so-called good or bad happening, an Adhyatmic person is unruffled with such events. He is balanced, He is stable, He is full of love, He is full of Joy, He is always helping others, He is never angry or upset, I can go on and on. This feeling of having control is like the joy once experiences while rafting in a dangerous river – no turn or jump or fall ruffles such a person and he is blissful through and through. At the end of such a journey, he becomes Narayana or Parama Shiva or Mahavishnu or Sri Devi himself – you become God yourself and will state our loud – Aham Brahmasmi!!! This is the claim of the Upanishads. Let us make this as our goal being the highest and most exciting adventure that any man can lay out for himself.

Om Tat Sat