PK: Interesting VN … I wonder though if it is possible to live a life where one is aware and still engaged in pleasures of life offered by senses or is that by definition mutually exclusive ?i am still unclear as to what being aware means .,, when one is conscious of one’s decisions /actions and their consequences is that awareness? Loved the explanation of states of mind .. So true … I can see the many if my actions are in the first three states 😃

UB: Let me assure you that we are all in the same states 😀. The ideas here will get expanded later on which may help us in conceptualizing these better. As requested by PA, I will continue posting of next shlokas post a quick revision.

VN: Uday lived the expression अहम्. If ब्राह्मी स्थिति sounds so soothing to ears I wonder how peaceful it would be to be in that state where in you become निष्काम निस्पृह निर्मम n निरहंकार😊.

PK – the above post is written by my brother and I feel what he means by being in a state of awareness is exactly what has been said in Gita. A state when you don’t become a slave of your senses but become choiceless. …you don’t have to choose but are concision in a state of clarity there by becoming free of your senses. 🙏🏻

HB: VN, loved the post, but state of consciousness is also a choice

VN: That is the beauty of it HB …till you consciously go on choosing something it is you are not in state of awareness. You are bit free from the slavery of your senses. Sounds tricky but once it seeps into your consciousness and the click happens everything becomes clear and choiceless.😌

PA: Running only after fulfilling desires that are the result of the information by the senses or driven also by our own conscious thoughts is a path to vinash. Is there a middle way where a balance is possible or a path of moderation possible?

UB: Moderation is to follow the disciplines prescribed by Saints/ scriptures. Imagine that we are living in a village and plan to climb Everest. If we need to pass through swamp, we need to follow Dharma applicable to swampy areas followed by dharma applicable to rocky paths followed by dharma applicable to plains followed by dharma applicable to path at the base mountain followed lastly by dharma applicable to highest parts of mountain. Essentially, we cannot stop being guided by our senses on day 1 itself but start moulding the senses as per our situation and state. Once the process of moulding becomes fine-tuned, we can move towards the ultimate state. This is where rituals, doing Japa, living family life but with moderation, daily discipline in conduct, etc. Living a life of discipline itself means that urges of the senses are held in check and once this becomes a practice, we will get to the ultimate state where disciplined action becomes automatic and senses become irrelevant.

UB: Sorry PK – I know you love rituals 😀

HB: I hate rituals

UB: 😀😀

HB: VN, consciousness and state of being choiceless, seems really tricky. Primitive instincts are governed by choicelessness. Consciousness which is higher evolved phenomenon cannot be driven by dispositions like or instinctive tendencies.

UB: When we are in a swamp, we have to use equipment that are necessary to remove us from the swamp 😀

HB: But maybe I am still Aparipakva 😀😓 and getting it all wrong. UB, I am not saying I won’t, I am just wondering if there are other options besides rituals. What about Bhakti marg, will that give a helicopter lift, no swamps, no rocks, no nothing

UB: 😀😀 Krishna will give us some options further on

HB: I am sure he will

UB: Bhakti Marg is most difficult, if not impossible as we will see in chapter 12. Once we get an idea of what bhakti really means, we will realize that Karma marga is better.

HB: Ok

UB: As stated earlier, we will wait for a day or two before I continue with chapter 3.

RS: UB – reading and absorbing. Did not have much to contribute earlier. But now I have a question. Why do you say Bhakti marg is hardest? I was understand the impression that – karma marg is the hardest especially with managing expectations. We all live thru this daily at work, at home. Always doing things and expecting something in return. Bhakti marg in contrast sounds easy to me. Was there not one man that called his son, Narayana. Since that was his last word, he ended up going to heaven despite being a sinner!!

HB: I have the same belief system. UB, that’s lot of work u are doing – posting shloka every morning without fail with meaning and now uploading on the website. Is there any way I can help? I thought Bhakti marg in most simplistic form means uthat  basat ram ram

PA : Yes HB additionally also answering question and giving clarifications at this rate the amount of Karma that we are accumulating as debt to UB we might have to be reborn as his pithuu or mundus 😀

VB: No way. Our upadhi is to listen. His is to give us gyaan, path. We r all in same train. 😀

PA: Actually let me try to answer that. Bhakti Bhav is total surrender and love God so much that you absolutely cannot live without His darshan. I remember a example of Ramakrishna where he said imagine somebody puts you in water and you gasp for breath and you would give anything to get your head out of water. Imagine now when you have such an intense desire to meet God every moment of your life –

Like Mira Bai, ravidas, Kabir

Namdev

That’s Bhakti Bhav

HB: 😊

PA: That why I think UB means it’s a bit difficult marg

HB: Ok. I don’t know if such intense love for God is possible for middle aged people. VB, 👌

RS: I guess, in a way, they all are hard. Otherwise, everyone would be knocking at the doors of heavens! I also guess, our temperament drives the path we choose.

VB: True

HB: Seems Logical.

PA – Mira, Namdev  etc started very early in life with their Bhakti. I don’t think there is anything to do with your physical age shift happens sometime in a instance. That’s what I think

VN: HB – I agree that bhakti is the most powerful but the most difficult path ….so is any other path but just to be aware and start the journey itself is an achievement to be celebrated.

PA : I think is not really a linear path and there is no thing as if you do this for this much time you will get this also I think expecting that you will reach your goal is also perhaps not asking too much

Just continue with your practice Japa or whatever one is doing – Phal ki Chinta Nahin

VN: True…Parvinder

PA: Even today’s sloka says to us that even when we come to the end of our life and leave then world in the last being desire less will liberate us

UB: Though in popular discourse, भक्ति is seen as a distinct path, some learned Gurus I listen to do not opine so. To give a crude example, if one wants to learn about robotics, attempting to build one and learn by trial & error is कर्म मार्ग and attempting to theorize by formulas is ज्ञान मार्ग – these are the only two paths really. Then what is भक्ति? भक्ति is merely one-pointedness towards the goal that one seeks to achieve which, as is evident, is critical for both paths. If you have भक्ति (meaning a very strong connection with the goal), all your acts whether कर्म or ज्ञान will get subsumed under that strong goal orientation. Paths become irrelevant for a for a भक्ति infested person – but this still does not take away that this person is still resorting to कर्म or ज्ञान. When a भक्ति person criticizes ritualists or intellectuals, he is not saying that his path is better but actually that कर्म without भक्ति or ज्ञान without भक्ति is a wasted effort. This thus does not appear like a distinct third path different from the other two.

UB: नारद भक्ति सूत्र is seen as a solid treatise on भक्ति. It defines भक्ति as follows

अथातो भक्ति व्याख्यास्यामः

Thus begins a commentary on भक्ति.

सा त्वस्मिन् परमप्रेमरूपा। अमृतस्वरूपा च ।

That (भक्ति) is indeed the nature of Supreme प्रेम towards परम् (or God). Supreme love for परम् is of the nature of Immortality also.

यल्लब्ध्वा पुमान् सिद्धो  भवति। अमृतो भवति तृप्तो भवति।।

Having attained this supreme भक्ति, the devotee attains perfection & immortality and becomes extremely satisfied.

यत्प्राप्य न किञ्चिद्वाञ्छति न शोचति। न द्वेष्टि न रमते नोत्साही भवति।।

Having attained which (भक्ति), he cares for nothing, never greives, never hates, never delights in anything and he finds no urge or enthusiasm for sense joys.

यज्ज्ञात्वा मत्तो भवति स्तब्धो भवति। आत्मारामो भवति।।

Having known which (devotion), one becomes intoxicated, silent and enjoys within Himself.

VN: ‘साईबाबांचे’ सुंदर वाक्य…👌

किसी व्यक्ति ने साईं से पूछा:बाबा आप बड़े हो फिर भी “नीचे “क्यों बैठते हो? साईं ने बहुत खुबसूरत सा जवाब दिया  “निचे” बैठनेवाला कभी” गिरता” नहीं…

PK: I always thought of Bhakti as unquestioning submission of oneself to devotion -which to me seems different from focus towards goal – hence to me it seems like a separate pat h from gyan which is seeking but thru questions – to some extent karm yoga is similar to Bhakti – do your duty unquestioningly but maybe I am all wrong and the he future chapters will educate me😃

HB: Won’t a Bhakt acquire gyani without consciously striving for it?

VB: Are we not doing all this for a phal or result? So are all these paths not being followed for a result? They are. So is following karmyogi path not contradiction in itself.

HB: How?

VB: We follow path to be a part of that. To be one with the one. To be sthitpragya – is that not an outcome?

HB: How is it a contradiction?

VB: I understood at a very base level, that I shud work without desiring or getting impacted by the result.

HB: Maybe a karma yogi doesn’t desire it the way others do. It is part of incidental gains. He simply enjoy the flow

VB: So here are we not following a certain path to get the outcome of being sthitpragya. And we r worried if we will reach there or not. So…

VB: NAIVEDYAM:

WILL GOD EAT OUR OFFERINGS?

Here is a very good explanation about Naivedhyam to God. Will God come and eat our offerings? Many of us could not get proper explanation from our elders. An attempt is made here.

A Guru – Sishya conversation:

The sishya who doesn’t believe in God, asked his Guru thus:

“Does God accept our Naivedhyam (offerings)? If God eats away the ‘prasadham’ then from where can we distribute it to others ? Does God really consume the ‘prasadham’, Guruji?”

The Guru did not say anything. Instead, asked the student to prepare for classes.

That day, the Guru was teaching his class about the ‘upanishads’. He taught them the ‘mantra’: “poornamadham, poornamidham, ……poornasya poornaadaaya….” and explained that: ‘everything came out from “Poorna or Totality.” (of ishavasya upanishad).

Later, everyone was instructed to practice the mantra by – heart. So all the boys started practising. After a while, the Guru came back and asked that very student who had raised his doubt about Naivedhyam to recite the mantra without seeing the book, which he did. Now the Guru gave a smile and asked this particular shishya who didn’t believe in God: ‘Did you really memorize everything as it is in the book? The shishya said: “yes Guruji, I’ve recited whatever is written as in the book. The Guru asked: “If you have taken every word into your mind then how come the words are still there in the book? He then explained: “The words in your mind are in the SUKSHMA STHITI (unseen form). The words in the book are there in the STULA STHITI (seen). God too is in the ‘Sukshma sthiti’. The offering made to Him is done in ‘Sthula sthiti’. Thus, God takes the food in ‘Sukshmam’, in Sukshma stithi. Hence the food doesn’t become any less in quantity. While GOD takes it in the “Sukshma sthiti”, we take it as ‘prasadam’ in ‘Sthula sthiti’ ! 🙏

VB: There = status of being sthitpragya. I use the word select feature

HB: How will we reach the status of stitspradya if we are constantly worrying whether we are reaching there or not.

PK: My simplistic and probably completely erroneous theory. Karm marg- child like,”do as the adults tell you, do your duty, don’t worry ,folks smarter than you know this works😃.. You will see the light at some point. Bhakti marg-adolescent/teenager, “go with the flow, don’t think., faith is all that matters , no responsibilities chant the lords name and eventually you will see the light. Gyan marg – adult , “seeking to understand, failure is an option but honest effort matters and wants to figure it out with knowledge  … May or may not see the light. In this scale I am a child mostly doing with occasional wading into adulthood (reading this group 😃) with little interest in adolescence 😃  😃

PA: As VN said it is a treat every day to anxiously see what is posted on the group  a great blessing

UB: VB – your Q is very valid. Is desire to become स्थितप्रज्ञ not a desire? Let us take the case of a student in school – while teacher is teaching, he may desire to doze off or desire to play games or desire to trouble other students or desire to make notes so that he can top the class or desire to listen attentively to grasp the essence of the teaching. For a Karma Yogi who is a doer, Krishna will say – desire the Highest viz listen to grasp the essence of the subject. For a Gyana Yogi, Krishna will say – mother’s love for a child is not desire, it is a सहजस्थिति, desire for self for preservation is not a desire, it is सहजस्थिति. Our desire to go for a vacation to Ooty or Sikkim is a departure from our सहजस्थिति and is thus indeed a desire but if after 10 days in Sikkim, we wish to return home, this wish is not a desire, it is merely an expression of returning back to our सहजस्थिति. Our love for परम् is thus not a desire, it is mere longing to go back home to our सहजस्थिति. Net net, it looks like different advice given to both in different ways though the outcome is the same.

UB: Ultimately, कर्म not leading to ज्ञान is जड or a wasted action. Too much ज्ञान or intellectualization not backed by any action is laziness. And finally, pursuing कर्म & ज्ञान without love are purposeless 😀.

UB: From a recap perspective, key shlokas of Chapter 2 are 2:2/2:3 being slap given to one who is shunning action giving noble homilies, 2:16 making distinction between real & unreal, 2:22-24 on permanence of Aatma, 2:38 on equanimity, 2:46 on need to go to a stage where even scriptures cannot reach, 2:47 on performance of disinterested Karma, 2:48 on समत्वम्, 2:50 for योगः कर्मसु कौशलम् and 2:55-72 on स्थितप्रज्ञ. However, it is 2:49 that sits in Arjuna’s mind pushing the discussion to chapter 3.

PK: In my opinion that is very different from unquestionably submission – that is not love to me! Maybe I am not getting the Bhakti concept accurately – my understanding may be totally wrong! I just do not care much for chanting, rituals etc… No love there for me so waste of time for me! To develop love or sharddha , I think the pre-,requisite is genuine interest  … To do it because one loves it not for others , recognition , praise etc .. I use that as a litmus test for most of my actions. I will say though that doing something occasionally because it brings joy to someone I love is something I totally agree .., I will not do it all the time though – it feels fake and hypocritical then 😃

UB: PK – you have raised valid points. Over the course of the chapter the terms will get clearer. Do note that many of our actions are usually done without understanding or love. We studied in school not out of love but our parents pushed us into it 😀. Genuine interest in subjects came must later. Even in marriage, love comes much much later with deeper understanding. Why – even love for a simple mug of beer comes much later and not in the initial sips 😀. Religious acts are thus meant only for चित्त शुद्धि and not actions done only after love develops. Love thus comes only with deeper understanding which happens only when our mental clarity improves. These aspects will get clearer as we progress further in this discussion.

PA: Absolutely  🙏🏻🙏🏻

PA: Religious acts for चित्त शुद्धि

लाइक ठाट !

It’s something which I Also agree somewhere down the line बात बन जाइगी !

UB: PA – I must say I did not understand what you have sent. लाइक ठाट????

PA: Like that prabhoo!! Sorry for causing the confusion 😀😀

PK: Good one Parvinder 😂

PA: 😆😄 UB great example and explanation of the सहज स्थिति – The power of unfulfilled desires is the root of all man’s slavery. Paramahansa Yogananda, Autobiography of a Yogi. Another beautiful quote talking about how difficult it to control the mind but worth doing. You may control a mad elephant; You may shut the mouth of the bear and the tiger; Ride the lion and play with the cobra;

By alchemy you may learn your livelihood; You may wander through the universe incognito; Make vassals of the gods; be ever youthful; You may walk in water and live in fire; But control of the mind is better and more difficult.

UB: Indeed true 👍👍

RS: UB – you do your Karma of Cut and Paste and we will do our Karma of appreciating you work.

Every time you preform cut and paste, read this line 😀

कर्मण्येवाधिकारस्ते मा फलेषुकदाचन। मा कर्मफलहेतुर्भूर्मा तेसङ्गोऽस्त्वकर्मणि।।2.47।।

2.47. Let your अधिकार lie on कर्म alone and never on the फल; you should never be a cause for the fruits of action; let not your संग be to अकर्म.

HB: I have still not understood what parvinder meant by shuddi….

UB: Raghava 👍👍👏

HB: Raghav, 2.47 aptly used

RS: Jokes aside, I read your post every day and I try to understand it. Like Pria, I too find Bhakti hard to understand much less accept. On the other hand, while 2.47 mashes sense intellectually, how does one follow constantly? Your point about praise makes sense; how does one constantly avoid the trap of expectations (praise, promotion, reward etc. for ones actions)? Does Krishna tell/teach अर्जुन how to condition our mind?

UB: Yes – the verses ahead will bring out this aspect in a focussed manner. I guess we have to be alert and catch those verses that appeal to us

RS: Looking forward to it

PA: Sorry HB perhaps I did not write it correctly I was referring to UB comment on religious rituals practices that help in the चित्। शुद्धि. It’s what for example mantra chanting does मन्त्र. Protects your mind from negativity and takes you towards God. For example – लोका समस्टे सूखिनो भावन्तो

May all sentients beings be happy. At a basic level sound vibration and the combination of the words and their sounds helps one on levels which we do not maybe know about but the practice helps. First you do it just for the heck of it then you start liking. It and it does creates this सहज state. Somewhere down the line अगर उसकी कृपा हो तो फिर सुख ही सुख पर फल की चिंता बिना तू बस गाये जा japtey जा

PK: Well said Peru .. I do love the Sholoka you posted – may we all attain our best on this wonderful journey !👍 I was reminded of one of my favorite quotes :In your light I learn how to love. In your beauty, how to make poems. You dance inside my chest where no-one sees you, but sometimes I do, and that sight becomes this art. We love: that’s why life is full of so many wonderful gifts. Rumi

PA: What a wonderful quote you have posted PK. That’s one of the most beautiful lessons that one can remember

साच कहो सुन लहो प्रभेय जिन प्रेम कीयो तीन ही प्रभ पायो

  -guru gobind Singh

Another of a very powerful mantra

ओम् सचिनंदं परब्रह्मा पुरुषोत्तमा परमात्मा श्री भगवती समेता श्री भगवतै नम:

I listened to Deva premal chanting this and liked it so much. She is a German who grew in Pune and sings Hindu mantras and it’s a divine experience watching her live. Her explanation is also that Stayed in my head: Sat chitt Ananda – that’s what we really are. Parabrahma  is the divine unseen consciousness that is every where. Purushotma is the manifest form of this divine in the form of all

The Saints and Masters. Paramatma is the part of this divine on each of us. Sri bhagawati is the feminine aspect or the shakti or the creation and the Sri bhagawatey is the male aspect of the creation (ying and yang). And in the end salutations – Namah

PK: Very very nice 👍👍👍👍