UB: अर्जुन उवाच ।

ज्यायसी चेत् कर्मणस्ते मताबुद्धिर्जनार्दन । तत्किं कर्मणि घोरे मां नियोजयसिकेशव ॥३.१॥

अर्जुनः said: If (चेत्), O! जनार्दन, your (ते) contention (मता) is that knowledge (बुद्धिः) is better (ज्यायसी) than action (कर्मणः), why (किम्) then (तत्) do you impel (नियोजयसि) me (माम्) into this gruesome (घोरे) action(कर्मणि), O! केशव.

व्यामिश्रेणेव वाक्येन बुद्धिं मोहयसीवमे । तदेकं वद निश्चित्य येनश्रेयोऽहमाप्नुयाम् ॥३.२॥

With words (वाक्येन) that are seemingly (इव) contradictory (व्यामिश्रेण), you appear to be (इव) confusing (मोहयसि) my (मे) mind (बुद्धिम्). Having decided (निश्चित्य) which is better (तत्), tell me (वद) the one thing (एकम्) by which (येन) (अहम्) shall gain (आप्नुयाम्) liberation (श्रेयः).

UB: In a conversation where one person is in a state of agony, even when the other person gives detailed logic, the agony mind will choose such a statement that can be (mis)used to maintain his or her position. In 2:49, अर्जुन thinks भगवान् meant by his words that कर्म is inferior to बुद्धियोग – he thus ignores all the other lines/ arguments and focus on just this one line to ask a question as to why भगवान् is pushing him to do the inferior कर्म especially if it is inferior to ज्ञान. In fact , अर्जुन has confused himself since भगवान् meant कर्मयोग when He used the words बुद्धियोग and not ज्ञान. Besides, he thought that ज्ञान involves abandoning of कर्म and he is thus not clear that कर्म and कर्मयोग are not one and the same. He thus asks भगवान् to clarify this confusion to clear his mind.

PA: Classic explanation that a mind in agony will always pick explanations to suit his position. Of course अर्जुनs dilemma is also not an ordinary one !

PK: Yup … I think even in the absence of a risks, we tend to believe in the facts that suit our world view – confirmation bias is true 😃

UB: श्रीभगवान् उवाच ।

लोकेऽस्मिन्  द्विविधा  निष्ठा  पुरा  प्रोक्तामयाऽनघ।  ज्ञानयोगेन साङ्ख्यानां कर्मयोगेनयोगिनाम् ॥३.३॥

श्रीभगवान् उवाच: O! Sinless one (अनघ), the two-fold (द्विविधा) committed life-style (निष्ठा) in this (अस्मिन्) world (लोके), was told (प्रोक्ता) by Me (मया) in the beginning (पुरा) – the pursuit of ज्ञान (ज्ञानयोगेन) for the renunciates (साङ्ख्यानाम्) and the pursuit of कर्म (कर्मयोगेन) for those who pursue activity (योगिनाम्).

न कर्मणामनारम्भान्नैष्कर्म्यंपुरुषोऽश्नुते । न  च सन्न्यसनादेव सिद्धिंसमधिगच्छति ॥३.४॥

A person (पुरुषः) does not (न) gain (अश्नुते) the state of actionlessness (नैष्कर्म्यम्) by the non-performance (अनारम्भात्) of activities (कर्मणाम्). Nor does (नच) the person attain (समधिगच्छति) सिद्धि (liberation) out of mere (एव) renunciation (सन्न्यसनात्).

UB: This one is simple – भगवान् here says that He has given the knowledge of two-fold path right in the beginning. This implies that what He is conveying is an eternal Truth (सनातन सत्य) and not any recent invention or innovation. Two paths thus are – one for activity oriented people and other for intellect oriented people. However, one does not become intellectual by giving up action (as अर्जुन was arguing in CH 1). Equally, only foolish people can think that giving up action is somehow noble and will take them to the highest. Here a key word निष्काम कर्म has been introduced. When many people learned in Gita are asked to give an essence of how life is to be led as per Gita, their usual reply is – ‘Perform निष्काम कर्म’ – that is all.

PA: Beautiful UB what does it mean exactly with निष्काम कर्म ? Doing actions just because you are supposed to do ? Without being attached to the Fruits of the action

UB: Action done without काम – what this means will be described in later verses.

PA: Ok good

UB: Discussions will start getting heated up from tom over the next few days – be prepared for long explanations 😀

PA: The most tricky aspect of working without any desire what does it mean in practical life? What is amazing is Bhagwan is giving again and again the concepts to drive down the point which he covered in 2.47and 2.48

UB: There will be a lot of repetition which I guess is an attempt to reinforce the concepts again and again to drill-in the ideas perfectly. I think this will get clearer as अर्जुन himself will raise many Qs as we progress

UB: न हि कश्चित् क्षणमपि जातुतिष्ठत्यकर्मकृत् । कार्यते  ह्यवशः कर्म सर्वः प्रकृतिजैर्गुणैः॥३.५॥

Indeed (हि) no one (न कश्चित्) ever (जातु) exists (तिष्ठति) for even (अपि) a second (क्षणम्) without performing action (अकर्मकृत्) because (हि) everyone (सर्वः) being helpless (अवशः) is made to perform (कार्यते) action (कर्म) by the guṇas (गुणैः) born of प्रकृति (प्रकृतिजैः).

कर्मेन्द्रियाणि संयम्य य आस्ते मनसास्मरन् । इन्द्रियार्थान्  विमूढात्मा मिथ्याचारः  सउच्यते ॥३.६॥

The one (सः) who (यः), controlling (संयम्य) the organs of action (कर्मेन्द्रियाणि), sits (आस्ते) with the mind (मनसा) remembering (स्मरन्) the sense objects (इन्द्रियार्थान्) is deluded (विमूढात्मा) and is called (उच्यते) a person of false conduct (मिथ्याचारः).

यस्त्विन्द्रियाणि मनसानियम्यारभतेऽर्जुन ।कर्मेन्द्रियैः कर्मयोगमसक्तः सविशिष्यते ॥३.७॥

Whereas (तु), O! अर्जुन, the one (सः) who (यः), controlling (नियम्य) the sense organs (इन्द्रियाणि) with the mind (मनसा), is unattached (असक्तः) and takes (आरभते) to the yoga of action (कर्मयोगम्) with the organs of action (कर्मेन्द्रियैः), is far superior (विशिष्यते).

UB: Can anyone ever be living in a state of non-action? Even a संयासी sitting in a वन will be doing some action or another. What non-action really means will be clarified later. Here, भगवान् does not hold back use of strong words where necessary – विमूढात्मा (confused/ deluded) and मिथ्याचार or hypocrite for people who close their eyes as if they are in ध्यान state but their mind is wandering all over the place. ‘कर्म’ thus includes both actions via the body as well as the mind. Any person doing कर्म however cannot be referred to as a कर्मयोगी – he is a कर्मिष्ठी (lover of कर्म owing to being a सक्त: or attached to fruit) whereas कर्मयोगी is one whose इंद्रियाँ are reined-in by मन while the मन itself is असक्त:. कर्म needs to thus be performed in an असक्त: state. भगवान् is thus advocating that a teacher in a school must give his or her best while teaching kids not for fame or higher salary or recognition but because her role demands such a conduct. Outwardly, a कर्मिष्ठी and a कर्मयोगी may look equally energetic and active in conducting the teaching activity but the mind-space of both are vastly different – also, भगवान् has chosen कर्मयोगी as His favourite as against a कर्मिष्ठी. Why? The answer will follow. But at least one misconception has been cleared here that an ideal man of religion positioned usually as someone who shuns the world and spends time in solitude in Himalayas has been demolished – a person doing his work actively within the world among other people may also be equally if not more religious than one sitting in an Ashram.

VN: Working actively within the world and yet not letting your mind wander sounds so impossible and I think that may be the reason why yogi and muni preferred to do their sadhna in himalayas or in some jungle.

UB: Noooo – Krishna made it easy for us. He says that if you are a teacher, do teaching in an immersed manner. If you are cooking, cook with full involvement. If you are working as a CEO, immerse yourself fully in that role. Only condition is that the role focus must be on the role itself and not the फल that will come from the conduct of the role. Now that of course is not that easy too 😀

VB: I am intrigued abt the difference between karmishthi and karmayogi. Karmishthi – so if I do karm be because it gives me peace of mind, am I not on right path. If I do gardening, because it pleases me, or if I like to go for grocery shopping (bcos I seriously like it), is it not as good as karmayogi. Karmayogi will do gardening and shopping with full Devotion but not with self expectations. Is karmishthi mentioned in sholk? Did not see it

PK: Karmisthi does karm out of desire for result/ fruit of Karm .. Am I right in assuming that it is ok to do it with joy i.e get full pleasure out of the activity ? In flow I think this happens for short bursts of time … Not sure how one sustains this temperament constantly ..seems very hard

VB: PK, you and I seem to be looking for that non-existing truth about loving the fruits, which will give purpose and justify our decadent life😀

PK: Satyavachan VB – we r love king for validation 😃 But in the process I hope slight modifications for the better occurs ..: maybe that is our prarabdha for this lifetime 😃

UB: 😀😀😀 Good points. Even I am trying to figure this out. First, कर्मिष्ठी is a word used by the Guru I closely listen to on YouTube. Second, to illustrate via an example, to study for passing an exam is not desire, to study for getting a seat in IIT is not a desire, to study to better your previous score is not desire, to study for the joy of studying is not a desire, to study to get featured in a local paper is desire, to study to go for a holiday to Europe as promised by parents is desire, to study to beat your close friends is desire. I hope I am right. The answer to your specific Q will come over the next few days.

PK: Hmmm.., not sure why desire for IIT is ok but desire for Europe travel is not 😃

UB: Because excellence in your choice of vocation is your job anyway… I think. योग: कर्मसु कौशलम्

PK: Hmmm…,travel can be equally educational 😃

UB: Yes indeed – if the purpose of travel is indeed education. I think your real Q is – Is recreation and fun wrong? The answer is NO.

PK: This is getting complicated .. Our actions have ripple effects .. They are rarely so uni-dimensional

UB: 😀😀😀 Just wait for a few days.

PK: Ok 🙏🙏🙏

VB: People wanting IIT is just a step. What they want is the great life, career that comes with it

UB: Agree with that. So is your Q whether wanting great life and career is desire, correct? This brings us indeed to a key part – how does one “value” an action? This should get clearer (or more confusing 😀) over the next few days. BTW, कर्मिष्ठ is a simple word – कर्म + इष्ठ. इष्ठ, as you know, stands for liking. The word therefore stands for one who likes his actions.

VN: I think the point is our perspective of great life and enjoyment changes or rather becomes more clear with awareness. The material things which we have been moulded to think are the source of the so called great life cease to be so. Once we enjoy the real the great life the bliss of being in the state of awareness all these things don’t matter. ….that clarity is what we need to achieve.

UB: Correct – the words “great life and career” tends to be an ambiguous phrase initially till it takes a specific meaning and as well pursue this, we either reach it to refine the phrase with a new specific meaning or we may wonder whether one is really a Siddha after reaching or we may just forget about wanting to redefine this into any further specification and live in a suspended state of affairs

VB: True. But try telling that to a gen z who sees his parents and folks from earlier generation latching on to India education and making a life outside India. At that age, IIT or iim is a stepping stone. Very few go there for real education. Career, great life r all having different connotations at diff times. So our interpretation of phal also changes. What is desire now may become sahaj sthiti later.

VN: That is exactly how it should be any desire for that matter should become sahaj sthiti….In simpler words there’s nothing wrong in aiming for IIT or IIM or anything else but the joy obtained in doing what you are doing should be the same.

HB: This is tricky

PA: Fantastic so many messages. Tricky sloka today. However more and more the message how to stay in the world and practice spirituality. The subtle difference is slowly coming out. Doing work or to say things for example only to impress let us say people around you or only to get accolades or for that matter just material rewards is कर्मशती. However if you get those rewards you just accept them humbly and acknowledge them if you get brickbats get up and again try to correct your mistakes and do a better job next time. Going to holidays for example for regenerating yourself and tanking energy is not desire as helps in doing your work in a more efficient manner. However going to holidays and just indulging in for example overeating and sense gratification perhaps is a desire.

UB: PA – perfectly in sync with your words today

VB: PA, things are rarely so black and white, is it not? We go to vacation to both recharge and enjoy. In fact, many a times, enjoyment leads to recharging in some cases

UB: This debate itself shows why Krishna had to resort to 700 shlokas to convey the idea 😀

PK: Agree with all – it’s a tricky business as I worry one an delude oneself easily .., I wish there was a Krishna we could trust to decide which action is really nishkaam… I used to think at least I am doing my work/ duty with readonable efficiency and commitment but now I wonder 😃😃😃… How much kaam( desire) is there in my kaam( work) and is that good or bad? Very very interesting though … I love hearing all your thoughts ..spirituality in real life is hard… I agree with VB – that’s why most saints went off to the hills to meditate 😃

RS: Juice is better, especially fermented. Sorry could not resist 😀

PK: Amen 😂😂

HB: I think Krishna was suggesting that we live life fully, responsibly and in moderation. The society had clearly defined life in 4 ashram avastha. Any behavior beyond the roles prescribed at each stage by the society was “not good”

HB: The meaning I am deriving is that we don’t make desire our goal in life, nor should we be obsessed by it. So long as we give more weightage to the ‘tat’, it was probably deemed ok. We should not be slaves of our desires

PA: Well said HB. You are right VB life is rarely black and white especially there are temptations of splurging and indulging one self

UB: नियतं कुरु कर्म त्वं कर्म ज्यायोह्यकर्मणः ।

शरीरयात्रापि च ते न प्रसिद्ध्येदकर्मणः॥३.८॥

Do (त्वम् कुरु) कर्म that is to be done (नियतम्) because (हि) action (कर्म) is superior (ज्यायः) to inaction (अकर्मणः). And (च) due to inaction (अकर्मणः), even (अपि) the maintenance of your body (ते शरीरयात्रा) would not (न) become possible (प्रसिद्ध्येत्).

UB: 3:8 – Simple & classic. So I will complicate things. Keep doing कर्म that you are meant to do anyway. Here the push is to tell people to follow कर्म laid down in the शास्त्र regularly. Do not get into a mistaken notion that ज्ञान is better than कर्म and get into an  inaction (laziness) mode as an unwanted outcome. Do note if one really becomes an अकर्मी, one cannot even eat food or maintain one’s own body. ज्ञान should thus not make us descend into अकर्म. So keep acting as per one’s own stage in life. We thus have people into three buckets – an अकर्मी, a कर्मिष्ठी and a कर्मयोगी with कर्मयोगी being taken as most superior. Why? Next verse gives a glimpse of an answer. One may now ask – why follow शास्त्र? E Schumaker, author of “Small is Beautiful” says – “Nature abhors vacuum, and if the available spiritual space is not filled by something higher, it will necessary be filled by something lower…”. शास्त्र prescribes various नित्य/ नैमित्तिक कर्म performing which one will at least be in a रजोगुण mode rather than lapsing into तमोगुण (getting bored and thus swapping channels mindlessly, waking up late on holidays, sleeping late owing to excessive partying, etc). Over a period of time, by following the शास्त्र, we MAY move into सत्वगुण and eventually become गुणातीत. Even if one is unaware of शास्त्र, at least try to be active. Active with what is the inevitable Q – active with a vocation that reminds us of परम्. Which is why ancient India developed vocations – music, dance, painting, games, drama, architecture, story telling, etc all of which were also weaved around the idea of परम्. So have fun but keep getting reminded of the presence of परम् everywhere.

AK: One inference from this is a person who does not do anything is worse  than a person who does more evil. Is that a correct statement?

UB: 😀😀😀 अरे!!!!! आते आते ही sixer.

UB: Activity centered around परम् is what I have stated in my comments precisely to avoid the evil tilt interpretation

AK: Agreed that person who does more evil is worse off than the person who does more good. But the bottom of the totem pole is a person who does nothing.  Actually I thought that was brilliant.😀

VB: Why is that brilliant?

PK: I think this is trying to get st the same point …

VN: I think the order goes as doing evil. …doing nothing. … doing activity. ..and then finally doing activity centered around param. And this will be understood only to a person who as attained clarity or at least has stated his journey on this path. …and that is the purpose of Gita which will bring  awareness and clarity and may be then taking choiceless decision of doing right or wrong won’t be difficult any more.

UB: All these categories must be understood not on a solo basis but in their relation with परम्. I had earlier shared a 5-fold list – राक्षस प्रवृत्ति, असुर प्रवृत्ति, साधक, etc. राक्षस does not see the presence of परम्, believes his senses to be everything and enjoys taking from others and troubling others. This is the evil man. असुर does not see the presence of परम्, believes his senses to be everything and enjoys satisfying his senses (but does not trouble others too and lives in peace by “tolerating” others). One way of satisfying our senses is to indulge the body by excessive sleep and derive joy from it. Laziness thus becomes an असुर प्रवृत्ति  trait.

AK: My thought was as long as you do something , you can improve and do better things. When you do nothing, you become inert thus unable or incapable of doing anything forget anything good. Therefore being inert was the bottom of the totem pole. My impression is satisfying ones senses is also doing action.

PA: No wonder the statement – Empty mind is Devils workshop! From today’s sloka it’s true and one can actually based on ones own experience see the truth behind it. Long periods of inactivity makes you slip down towards the tamasik state of mind. Action done with the higher good in mind is the action required and ones conscious definitely points out what exactly is the higher good at each step it’s another thing we follow it or not. Or what you can call it intuition. Action done probably with just ones own selfish interest apart from self-preservation is what we need to spot. The question is to define boundaries of self preservation and the start of higher good…

UB: Wah!!!!! PA on a roll 😀👍. Yes – defining boundaries is a challenge. This is where constant scriptural reading, having a constant connection with people of similar likes and introspection of our own experiences in the light of scriptures will help us be on the path.

VN: This is exactly what my brother too keeps on telling me. To constantly be in company of such people. And hence once again very happy to be a part of this group. 😊

VB: Rolling parvinder. Visualizing it.😀

UB: After the next few days of what is lined up, all of us may be rolling. 😀😀

HB: I don’t action and inaction be simply compared for deciding this is better or that is better. It can only be decided by a context. An inaction or ignore may be an active mechanism of defusing a violent spiral in a conflict situation where the other person is very angry or lost his cool. It could be more near to being stithapradnya than anything else. A simplistic arrangement along a continuum may not be correct.

10/08/2016, 8:46UB: Whole of chapter 3 and 4 is on defining action and inaction in the Vedic context. I guess we will be in a clearer position on how to use these terms more clearly at the end of CH 4

05HB: Ok

09HB: Inaction also has strengths. Sleep is inaction to rejuvenate body. Yoga teaches shavasan, s state of absolute inaction of mind and body. It is only in this state that u can connect to the param.

HB: So it is not bad altogether, it simply depends when u choose to be inactive

UB: All the examples you gave are not examples of laziness. Sleep is not laziness

HB: They are for inaction

UB: Sleep is involuntary

UB: The inaction of bhagavan does not include sleep or shavasan

UB: Laziness is a problem unless you say that even laziness is good

HB: I am speaking only for the word inaction as it was used to decide the continuum

HB: There are different types of inaction, and hence the word cannot be used loosely

UB: OK – as I said, Lord will say a lot more in later verses . we can then discuss

HB: Inaction is not equal to laziness only. Sometimes action may bring in lot of regret. So it may be wiser to hold your horses, but again there be instances where inaction bring in regret. I guess only a evolved person would know when to act and when not to.

UB: Not acting is not inaction – as I said, we need to see the meaning meant here. Also, action that is very visible externally is termed as inaction as per Gita on certain occasions – this will come further ahead

HB: The whole point of this group is to be able to see meaning.  There can be different inferences drawn from the same sentence. Sumana ne shankara la pujile

UB: ???

HB: How many different ways can this sentence be interpreted

UB: Which language is this?

HB: Marathi

VB: Deciding not to do anything in an explosive situation with the intent to calm things is an action.

UB: Over to VB

HB: 😂 I need to shut up

VB: This is similar to saying non violence is a weapon. My Marathi is useless

HB: Yes, it is, sometimes

VB: Oops. Yes it is. I myself said that sometime back. I wanted today. That similarly, consciously not doing something is an action

HB: Precisely

VB: I think the definition of UB of not doing anything is being lazy

UB: Yes VB – conscious decision not to do anything is action

HB: In which case we should restrict to the word laziness

UB: In अर्जुन’s context, not doing war was considered as action by him and meditation as inaction.

UB: Hence, the Lord’s answer clarifying the meaning of these words here. More definition will come and hopefully we will get to what the Lord wants to convey by end of CH 4

HB: Ok

PA: Back from rolling !!😀😀 Actually, the Gita asks us to be detached from results, not goals. Results come after the work is done, whereas goals are set before the work is done. The importance of goal-setting is implicit in the Gita’s call (18.46) that we worship Krishna through our work. This call implies that our work should be as meticulous and devotional as is our worship. To make a high-quality offering in our work, we need to know the highest standard and strive to approach it as much as possible – that is, we need to set a worthy goal.

PA: https://www.quora.com/Bhagavad-Gita-says-not-to-worry-or-desire-for-the-result-but-perform-ones-Karma-Wont-this-detachment-from-desired-result-kill-the-motivation-of-Karma. Excerpt from a good article that I read and again showing a hint how one could implement in practical life

UB: Good clarification – thanks

UB: यज्ञार्थात्कर्मणोऽन्यत्र लोकोऽयंकर्मबन्धनः । तदर्थं कर्म कौन्तेय मुक्तसङ्गः समाचर॥३.९॥

This (अयम्) person who is enjoined (to do action) (लोकः) is bound by कर्म (कर्मबन्धनः) other (अन्यत्र) than that performed for the sake of यज्ञ (यज्ञार्थात् कर्मणः). For this reason, O! कौन्तेय, being one free from attachment (मुक्तसङ्गः), perform (समाचर) action (कर्म) for the sake of that (यज्ञ) (तदर्थम्).

11/08/2016, 4:52UB: 3:9 – Concept of bondage of कर्म (कर्मबन्धन:) is a key Indian idea;  कर्म by a कर्मिष्ठी binds him deeper into a cycle of further कर्म. On the other hand, कर्म done in a spirit of यज्ञ does not bind – in fact, it loosens the कर्मबन्धन: and progressively starts freeing him. Here, what work done with यज्ञ spirit means will be detailed in next few verses. Let us take up what कर्मबन्धन: refers to. Actions of a कर्मिष्ठी are done to fulfill longings – outcome may be सुख if there is success & दुख for failure. This then motivates a कर्मिष्ठी to repeat the कर्म either to seek pleasure again or to try again for success if failed in previous attempts. Memory stores the फल derived from all previous experiences as रस (words like वासन/ संस्कार are also used) and thus this रस pushes one to repeat certain type of कर्म (or avoid it). Such a person is thus caught in this कर्मबन्धन: as memory is cluttered with रस generated from all past experiences of सुख & दुख. One may add that even if desires are fulfilled, since the सुख from their acquisition is perishable, one sets out to acquire joys again & again and thus caught in a downward spiral of being caged to a cycle of repetition – this is the state of कर्मबन्धन:. And 2:62/63 clearly states that if a man is caught in a spiral of descent, he will perish because this takes him further & further away from परम्. In fact, any advice to act without desire starts sounding ridiculous to a कर्मिष्ठी since he is only used to working for satisfying his longs and has known no other way of living. Therefore , a कर्मिष्ठी works hard to satisfy urges but gets caught in कर्मबन्धन: while we can have another type of person who also works very hard IN A SPIRIT OF यज्ञ and becomes free from कर्मबन्धन:. What is the benefit of becoming free – he achieves समत्वम् which, as we saw in 2:68, gives him peace – world of difference thus between two work orientations!!!!!

PA: Wonderful !! Doing work in form or yagna also produces a different kind of bliss which also inspires to undertake more of these activities. Again need to differentiate between the pattern of intense craving / desire and the urge to do good for the sake of it or work for the sake it – work is worship

UB: Posting over the next two days is on a best efforts basis. Despite reading many references, I am not conceptually fully confident that the narrative on the concepts of यज्ञ & देवता is authentic. So, all the best since what you get is your own प्रारब्ध 😀

UB: सहयज्ञाः प्रजाः सृष्ट्वा पुरोवाचप्रजापतिः ।अनेन प्रसविष्यध्वं एषवोऽस्त्विष्टकामधुक् ॥३.१०॥

In the beginning  (पुरा) the Creator (प्रजापतिः), having created (सृष्ट्वा)  living beings (प्रजाः) along with यज्ञ (सहयज्ञाः), said  (उवाच): “By this (यज्ञ)(अनेन)  shall you multiply  (प्रसविष्यध्वम्). May this (यज्ञ) (एषः)  be (अस्तु) a wish-fulfilling cow (इष्टकामधुक्) for you (वः).”

देवान् भावयतानेन ते देवा भावयन्तुवः । परस्परं भावयन्तः श्रेयः परमवाप्स्यथ॥३.११॥

Propitiate (भावयत) the deities (देवान्) with this (अनेन) (यज्ञ). May those (ते) deities (देवाः) propitiate (भावयन्तु) you (वः). Propitiating (भावयन्तः) one another (परस्परम्), you shall gain (अवाप्स्यथ) the highest (परम्) good (श्रेयः) (mokṣa).‘’

UB: This verse lays down one of the cherished lines in the Gita – परस्परं भावयन्तः श्रेयः परमवाप्स्यथ. यज्ञ concept is another key Indian idea viz translated as sacrifice. Traditional यज्ञ has at least 5 key aspects – 1) यजमान or doer, 2) आहुति or offering, 3) यज्ञ देवता who receives the आहुति, 4) हवन viz the medium for placing the आहुति and 5) यज्ञ फल. In a यज्ञ, there is give & take that happens where यजमान gives to देवता and देवता graces the यजमान with यज्ञ फल with the यजमान accepts as प्रसाद. श्रीकृष्ण says here that ब्रह्मा mandated the whole universe to run on give & take principle right from the start. Ex – we offer services to our company and the employer, if satisfied, gives us our salary. We as यजमान offer food viz आहुति to the stomach which has digestive juices (हवन) and if the stomach is satisfied that the food is offered with a respectful attitude (meaning healthy food), this power within the हवन viz the अग्नि देवता then operates effectively to reward you with good health (यज्ञ फल). One can extrapolate this to any situation where cooperative endeavour works as a principle to imagine the simplicity but profundity of the यज्ञ conception. देवता here may be taken as potency or power that makes success possible. If one pushes bad food into the stomach in a careless manner, why should the अग्नि देवता residing there gives us health? Working with यज्ञ spirit thus means us and देवता working in a spirit of cooperative endeavour where we do all work as an agent of देवता. Thus, we as यजमान offer himself (efforts using body & mind) as आहुति to देवता (the highest state of perfect action that guarantees positive outcome), such a देवता thus consumes our offering, turns it into a फल which it enjoys and gives a remnant back to us which we accept as प्रसाद. We must not regard the outcome as a result of our own efforts but as a grace given by the देवता. So if a कर्मिष्ठी even fulfills desires by working hard to satisfy the urges of the देवता and accepts the fulfilled desires as प्रसाद instead of taking ownership (saying that I won Gold on account of my efforts as against “the परम् was gracious enough to grant me Gold”), then one may be living in a state of यज्ञ spirit. Equally, one must equally accept failures either as प्रारब्ध or as a sign that we may not have done work in the full spirit of यज्ञ. Lots more needs to be said – to be continued tom…..

UB: 1. यज्ञ/ देवता

Our body is composed of 19 parts – ५ कर्मेन्द्रिय, ५ ज्ञानेन्द्रिय, ५ प्राण, मन, बुद्धि, चित्त & अहंकार and मांडुक्य उपनिषद् refers to these as 19 ‘mouths’ which are always wanting food. Each ‘mouth’ has an अधिष्ठान देवता – वरुण for tongue, सूर्य for eyes, वायु for touch, दिक्देवता for ears, अग्नि for speech, चंद्र for mind, विष्णु for चित्त, रुद्र for अहंकार, ब्रह्मा for बुद्धि, etc. It is the सूर्य residing in the eye that makes vision possible (physical eye is just inert matter), it is the वरुण residing in the tongue that makes taste possible, etc. A देवता is always seeking pleasure – therefore, each ‘mouth’ wants to always consume the food of its choice and this spurs senses to always gratify themselves. Potency of देवता within us makes an experience via senses possible. However, at most times, we arrogate these 19 mouths to ourselves rather than seeing these as देवता within ourselves. Instead of acting as an agent of देवता, we acts as if we are a Principal. Instead of realizing that body has been formulated by the 19 देवता for meeting their own demands, the body viz just an instrument in the hands of देवता thinks of senses as its own instruments and thus thinks of it as a Principal. In a Principal – Agent relationship, all actions are done by the Agent in the name of Principal and benefits/ brickbats from Agents’ action get affixed to the Principal. If we act as an agent of देवता, कर्म will not be imputed to us but because we imputes कर्म to ourselves, कर्मबन्धन: starts accruing to us.  Body foolishly thinks that it is digesting food while digestion is not a conscious activity of body/ mind but happens owing to अग्निदेव, taste on account of वरुणदेव, sight on account of सूर्यदेव, breathing on account of वायुदेव, etc. In fact, no conscious effort on our part can either make or prevent these देवता from undertaking their activities within us.

UB: 2. यज्ञ/ देवता

देवता are not just present within us, they are present in others too. Not just humans but also other forms of life. These देवता also govern the entire universe. In Indian texts, the principles of life are the same within पिंडांड (microcosm) as well as ब्रह्माण्ड (macrocosm) – difference is only of scale but both our body viz पिंडांड as well as whole universe viz ब्रह्माण्ड are run by the देवता only. Just like elements within a periodic table, देवता may be taken as conscious spiritual elements present everywhere. Thus, if we feel thirst, we invoke the वरुण देवता within us which then gives us बुद्धि to seek water which also has वरुण as its presiding deity. Both देवता within and without come together and they thus are satisfied which is then passed on to the body enabling it to gain समत्वम्. In all this, our action to seek water and quenching thirst needs to be done as an agent of वरुण instead of as a principal. In such case, this action is not taken as our action and therefore we will not be bound by the result of the action. Body is a mere instrument given to us to discharge our duty – we are not the body. If work is performed in a dispassionate manner without getting caught into emotions that may come as reactions when we obtain यज्ञ फल, we attain समत्वम्. If we bypass देवता and arrogate all कर्म to ourselves, each such देवता may not cooperate with us. Equally, if we try to suppress desires by bypassing the देवता and try to reach परम् directly, their objective of forming body is defeated and they will put विघ्न to disturb our efforts. If we however work jointly with the देवता fulfilling desires as their agent but equally maintain समत्वम् when we receive यज्ञ फल, देवता will start cooperating with us by assisting us in working towards the attainment of परम्. परस्परम् भावयन्तात् can thus happen if we slowly fulfill desires too while accepting outcome as grace of देवता, live with a world view that body is a mere instrument of the देवता while your real essence is the परम्.

UB: To simplify the long narrative sent earlier, a person is said to be acting when he acts as a Principal while is he said to be not acting if he acts as an Agent. An agent is focussed always on discharging his duties and thus has to act responsibly to meet the demands of the Principal. If one does actions by discharging all roles as duty – i.e. of a husband, wife, employee, friend, etc., all such actions will not bind him if he discharges the duty to the best of his ability with sincerity and commitment. But the moment one starts expecting personal benefits from discharge of duty beyond the terms of the agreement, one starts getting bound by the actions. यज्ञ spirit of actions must thus be understood on these lines.

PA: Very very interesting commentary. How does the mind / buddi get actually clutched into the hands of the Ego or aham and benefiter of each of the actions is falsely interpreted as the body or ourselves  and this process strengthen s more and more over time ..The problem is also to suppose that most of us are not aware or this 19 body mouths and the associated devas so it is natural to think that you are the doer and the benefiter

UB: Well said PA – the “how” question that you raised is the key Q for which answer is eluding. Most Gurus say – do not bother how it happened. Now that you know that it has happened, figure a way to get out of this state. This is not satisfying of course but this is all I could gather. There is however a brief hint on this in CH 13 & 14 which is sometime away for all of us. 😀

UB: Pre-British Indian schooling was not about skills and jobs but focussed on these aspects. But in these evolved times, the concepts of देवता व्यवस्था has become out of use. However, anyone who is part of entities like Chinmaya Association/ Ramakrishna Mission or reads Upanishads or listens to Gurus will hear about these concepts. But yes – if we only read school books or Harry Potter, it is difficult to be even aware of these ways of thinking. Also, lot of regional language literature by saints including Abhangs of Tukaram or Tyagaraja Kritis which many South Indians learn daily refer to such ideas about Devatas – but most learn songs without knowing the meaning and since most speak English in homes too, such gyan has been lost to most of us.

PK: Hmmm… I do not understand this- we have suddenly switched from a new version rational explanation to metaphysical realms with Devtas, sacrifice etc.., finding this hard to accept .. No offense. The body is a sophisticated instrument , needs to be taken care of respectfully while recognizing that we are more than our physical self- this I grasp ,,, but my background knowledge of human body makes it hard to accept that out digestive system is controlled by gods…I am going to take a pass at thus concept as it seems irrelevant to the big question … Coming to my next more important merging of yagya and karm is interesting but contradictory – doing actions without thinking of outcome I can grasp – hard to do but concept makes sense- we teach our kids too – honest story, try your best etc… Why this sudden give and take, sacrifice etc. Also, respectfully Uday , Rowling who wrote Harry Potter books is a genius in my opinion and every child who has enjoyed her but one has discovered a world of imagination and wonder .. As an adult who has thoroughly enjoyed her books, I see only benefit and no harm …

VB: Too much to debate. Will vomit my thoughts tomorrow

PK: Indian teachings are great but the British system of knowledge has many many benefits and it would be a bit of stretch to say we have not benefited at all z..: again no offense intended … But I am compelled to defend that 😃

VB: PK, take a deeeeeep breath I did…then wrote VB 😀😀

VB: I am still taking deep breaths

RS: PK – You know I am a staunch materialist, so I am not defending the devtas. But it is a place holder to describe the various body “parts” and their need to be fed. Each input has a certain type and that is then assigned to an appropriate devta fur easy association to remember. Vayu and touch, Surya and eye, etc. make sense in that way.Pardon my simplistic interpretation, but it helps me move past this shloka to the next.

UB: Now I am taking a deeeep breath – I hope I do not have a breathing attack 😀😀😀. I see RS is keen to QUICKLY move on to the next shloka…😀As for PK’s point, I wonder where do I start. At least I will start by saying that I will not feel offended by your questions. I am a student just like you learning and trying to make sense. What is nonsense will be rejected by me too. But first, Devata is wrongly translated as God. That is the worst mistake we made when English came here and we translated Indian texts in English. In the Upanishads, Devatas seem more like forces that bring about change. Ex – Since fire burns, fire is a devata. Forces are not gods. I have to be careful on matters of medical zone – maybe I need to run to the next shlokas 😀😀

PK: Personally I am very sceptical of religious education for kids .. The dangers of being taught by mediocre folks who brainwash is a real concern to me .., I know you meant read only Harry Potter but I am afraid that many will say read only Hindu stories or the respective religion they are espousing …I am wary of any teacher who proposes that one system or philosophy is superior and that is very easy to convince children who are malleable …I am not comfortable with kids being exposed to concepts like the Devtas in the body need to be satisfied to be healthy 😃… Even if they come from sacred texts …The sudden switch of tenor in chapter 3 is intriguing … Still very curious to see where this goes but for me these sholkas are best ignored and to move on forward 😃.

UB: Are you also not espousing a strong view that religious education is dangerous? Mediocre teacher is indeed a valid concern but it is so even for science or maths. So the action is not to avoid religious education but instead go for a good teacher

PK: AP biology is a better explanation than this in my opinion … There are systems in our complex body .. This is how they work etc😃 Less worry about a mediocre math teacher .., in that sense I am actually acknowledging that teachings of morality and soul is more important … Math biology deal with facts that can be refuted and remedied more easily .., the moulding of thoughts is a much more serious business 😃

VN: The fact that we are trying to understand Bhagwad Gita so late is a proof that our sacred texts have been unfortunately been ignored …thus depriving is and our young generation too from being benefited from it.  Nothing wrong on being exposed to any form of literature from any country. ..but at the same time we need to make efforts to remain connected with our teachings too. Of course a good teacher plays a very important role. …and Uday for this we are relying on you😄

UB: Noooo VN – I am also a student.

PK: I would actually argue the opposite.. The Gita is a complex and intriguing treatise better left for an older age when one can understand and critically digest..,for children basic tenets of morality are best .., stories are fine more to know our culture .ans where they come from.., the rest is for later line how we are doing …my 2 cents and how I am raising my kids .. Have been wrong before and course corrected but this may be one ship that has sailed at least Halfway as my kids are tweens and teens.., no regrets yet thigh that’s for sure . Fully agree with you that Uday is doing a great service by exposing us so systematically and that we can have honest convos and learning … Thanks much Uday … Without you , I would be arguing without actually reading and learning 😃

UB: PK – I talked about Pre British only to state that education at that time was not for job or skills but was about how to live life with a certain world view. Skills were passed on from parents or from family including medical knowledge . Also, my intention was not to find fault with Harry Potter but just to state that it is not a book on Brahma Vidya and one will not know about Devatas from this text. One needs to read the Upanishads to learn – not even Amar Chitra Katha will help.

UB: Just to clarify my understanding – and I would love to be corrected. Gravitation is a force, magnetism is a force. Similarly, digestion is a force that will happen once food goes inside – one cannot consciously stop it. Nor can one stop breathing and still live. These forces happen automatically since birth and these forces have been referred to as Devatas. So if someone says – eat healthy food or you will have digestion problems. So respect this force. If I thus understood Devatas in this way, it does not seem to challenge my intelligence. I just need to remove my earlier idea of knowing Devatas as external gods who are living in heaven. That is crappy Amar Chitra Katha which one should stop reading after reaching 10 years.

VN: In Ayurveda digestion force had been referred to as agni …eating food can be compared to the samagri which needs to be made “arpan” to satisfy the agni and to get good results we need to eat healthy or make proper arpan for the yagna to be successful…… My understanding😌

UB: You are right – it is a different way by use of specific Indian terminology to express the same ideas. We find it odd because these terms have gone out of our lives. And we have reduced religions to pithy morality or pop stories – but that is only based on surface reading of these texts. Having said that, a good Guru is key or else PK’s fear is indeed valid that we will end up learning but things the wrong way

VN: Exactly the reason why our kids need to be exposed to our vast treasure of gyan at the right age through right guru.

UB: We have moved on to the Mahabharata war leaving the Gita aside 😀

VN: Not war UB…it’s called विचारो  का आदान प्रदान 😄😄

RS: @UB – Lol. You’d are right; loose translations are dangerous. I am sure others have said it and Rajiv Malhotra wrote a nice book about it. It specifically focuses on how words like Guru and Dharma are loosely used in English. We are all to some extent guilty of it as we now think mostly in English. Then i went to my Sanskrit class and I addressed my teacher as guru and he stopped us there and spent five minutes going over my ignorance. There seems to be many levels and he was”in his opinion” merely a Shishaka.

UB: You too!!!!! I am an RM influenced person for a couple of years. I even gifted VB here the BD book. RM uses the word non- translatables.

RS: I liked the gist of his book very much. That is another reason why I am trying to learn Sanskrit. Slow progress add i an indolent as well 😀

UB: 👍👍

HB: I think assigning the word devata to these parts means that they are ‘vandaniya’.  They are to be respected, and treated with care, if we need them to function properly. Abusing any part will mean adverse consequences. The view that they are devata is very Gestalt. The whole of us or the whole of this body, irrespective of its functioning(in/out) , is to be accepted and respected.

AK: Wow. Did not get a chance to read yesterday so catching up. Nice back and forth. My takeaway and 2 cents from the stanza is the yagna attitude.  The hardest thing for me is to do is do the work in a yagna attitude which is how every action should be performed. And yagna is not just the detachment from results, which is the doable part and one we teach our kids often. It’s the performing action as an agent of God or whatever higher principle we hold onto. That is a struggle (to apply) . And I feel you need serious faith and bhakti for this not just knowledge.

PK: Ambi : I think you have hit the nail on the head with respect to the struggle especially mine 😃

AK: I have heard UB say this before but I also feel that learning and thinking in English  that we all are prone to do now makes it harder to accept the vedanta. English and western philosophy is a very ,’I’  way of life. In a good way though in terms of personal responsibility, service, integrity etc. It’s a very individualistic approach.  Indian philosophy is the complete opposite where the struggle is to get rid of the I. So the fact that we think so much in English and embrace the western thinking also creates a dissonance in us.this is a typical  ‘ara gorai’ or ‘idhar Na udhar ke’ folks. 😀

UB: 1. यज्ञ/ देवता

As per our texts, we have obligation (ऋण) towards 5 classes – देव, ऋषि, पितृ, मनुष्य & भूत. देवता has already been explained (albeit with a lot of disagreement!!). ऋषि have gained enlightenment but out of compassion for us have/written reams of literature for us to reach their state. पितृ meaning ancestors have passed on their genes to us and we may say that they are living within us. मनुष्य meaning human society around us whose presence in society helps us on most of our endeavours. And lastly, भूत meaning plants, animals and elements from whom we obtains food and other equipments. On a daily basis, we must do all work keeping in mind our gratitude to these five classes and called as पंचयज्ञ. Spirit of यज्ञ may thus also be taken as living with a feeling of cooperative endeavour with nature and society. देवयज्ञ means expressing कृतज्ञता by doing Puja and make offerings to them before all actions. ऋषियज्ञ means expressing कृतज्ञता by reading daily the works of ऋषि. पितृयज्ञ means expressing कृतज्ञता by doing श्राद्ध rituals as and when mandated. मनुष्ययज्ञ is done by helping fellow humans, treating guests with respect and dignity, offering food to needy before eating, charity, etc. भूतयज्ञ means expressing कृतज्ञता by feeding animals, taking care of plants by not cutting trees recklessly or eating only so much as we are hungry or drawing only as much minerals as are needed, etc. All कर्म exercised with कृतज्ञता भाव automatically brings moderation in our conduct with nature and society and such acts done in moderation are also referred to as living with यज्ञ spirit.

UB: 2. यज्ञ/ देवता (based on ज्ञानेश्वर भाष्य)

Cooperative endeavour was expected in organization of human society too and such conduct of work which is driven towards an attitude to help others is also known as यज्ञ spirit. In an ideal conception of the ancient society, a ब्राह्मण used to get Vedic education but he needs to use this for the benefit of others; in return he may get दक्षिण to sustain life. A क्षत्रिय acquires power but he must use this power to serve others; in return, a ब्राह्मण will offer advice to him and वैश्य will offer money. A वैश्य acquires money for doing business but he must use this wealth for society benefit like building lakes, tanks, gardens, etc; in return, the society gives him support in all his endeavours. A शूद्र owns land and carries on agriculture or does other tasks to serve others in society; in return, he gets wealth from वैश्य, security from क्षत्रिय, advice from ब्राह्मण, etc. Each part of the society must focus on their core expertise by using such expertise for serving others; focus must be on duty and if all in society focus on doing their duty, the world will sustain itself smoothly through this give and take process.

UB: AK – I do understand your point about Vedanta being difficult. I guess one must note that the pursuit of Gita is to convey ब्रह्मविद्या where the goal is highest goal of mankind – there is no higher goal. Even for an Olympic medal pursuit, athletes plan for years on end and give up everything else to pursue human excellence. What then will be the orientation required for what is stated not just as a human’s highest goal but in reality, the only goal of life. If Gita restricts itself only to a few morals and pop stories thrown here and there, then it can be dismissed as pop spirituality. But what Gita seeks is a radical transformation which can only come if we are convinced of the truth being conveyed indeed has value acquiring which one achieves the state of परम्

HB: Nice put , AK

UB: Also, I will not buy this Western -Eastern divide beyond a point. A powerful message strikes all the right thinking people irrespective of their religious affiliation and nationality. Attached video gives a glimpse of impact of Gita on the American founders – The American Veda by Phil Goldberg

PA: Very very Nice explanation of being indebted to so many class of entities for each and every action of our life. Each of these classes have so many entities!!!! Just by remembering this one can actually come to a state of humbleness and ask what is it that actually I have really done just by myself without the support of all these entities and forces? Everything has happened with the grace of God! I suppose this moment by moment awareness makes the consciousness shift towards a feeling of enormous gratitude and I suppose then slowly the idea of I me myself and being the doer and the receiver shakes up and automatically our actions and thoughts align as a way of offerings and as a form of Yagna. One cannot be a sole receiver of the fruits of the action when one has not been the sole person responsible for doing it.

UB: Perfect last para PA – why can one be the sole receiver when we are not the sole person for the act itself

VB: Why get this into this entire discussion on devtas if we agree on karmayogi concept? It maybe necessary for some to have a framework to explain why we should be a karmayogi. But not for all. If I believe and a m convinced that I shud do karm without desiring for result, I can do without the 19 devtas in our body construct. Is this being made complex than necessary? UB, u mention – **Equally, if we try to suppress desires by bypassing the देवता and try to reach परम् directly, their objective of forming body is defeated and they will put विघ्न to disturb our efforts.** This take me back to my original q of – If all have the same atma and if it cannot be destroyed, what are we killing? If we have the same oneness in all, why we behave differently?

UB: 😀😀 Sensible questions indeed. Firstly, why did I bring up देवता? Since Krishna used the term, even I had to use it. I did not want to sugar coat by ignoring or side-stepping this term. And I therefore tried to give a glimpse of the term is meant to be underwent though in reality, the whole concept in detail will require pages. Second, can we learn about Gita without this term? Well!!! Every subject has a certain terminology and uses certain variables. If we thus have to learn the subject, we cannot pick and choose variables of our choice. This is like a student of Maths telling his teacher – can I learn Maths but without algebra or Calculus? And besides, I have read qualified physicists – Indian & Western express admiration for the देवता concept – so I have to give the “devil” its due rather than sugar coat it or side step it.

PK: I am glad you exposed us to this concept and are explaining it … Fully agree that I want to learn Gita in its entirety and not have it concised for me 😃 On the other hand , maybe it’s ok to bypass concepts that are difficult for one to grasp or digest if it is not mission critical .. Everyone needs basic math concepts .., calculus can be avoided .., not everyone needs to be a math expert yet everyone needs a basic grounding in fundamentals I think ..,Sometimes I think pop psychology probably tries to fill this vacuum … It seems trite to experts but if it helps novices and sticks to basic truths and tenets , it is not completely useless I think!

UB: Sure – will attempt to keep it simple 👍. VB – to your point on why can we keep to Karmayog without referring to Devatas, there is a specific reason for it. When we talk about us, we refer to the body including mind as within ‘us’. As we will see further on, this idea of ‘I’ is not a vedic idea. Our idea of ‘I’ has two parts – the जीव part which thinks of itself as a distinct entity from others and आत्मा part which is one in all. The idea of जीव however does not include the body and the mind too. जीव thus only refers to a certain identity that carries longings and urges while body and mind are regarded as instruments to fulfill these longings. Body and mind are thus seen as forces just like a lighter we use has power to light a stove. Or the symbology of horses is used where horses are forces which have independent power but Krishna as a charioteer controls them. In our cases, while we are in a chariot, we are being pulled by the forces of the senses and thus we under not the controller while senses are. The power of these senses is referred to as Devatas and we are thus being told that we have to take care of these Devatas properly and respectfully so that they are in our control and take us to our goal. Hence, Krishna had to use the term Devatas but while अर्जुन would have understood this term, we cannot since we are not used to it. That is all. As I said, Devatas should not be translated as God – that is a wrongly ascribed meaning

PA: Regarding the question that when we all have same oneness whey we behave differently is because the जीव part that is in each of us is based on the longings and desires that we have incorporated over lifetimes and are different for different people. The आत्मा is of course constant. After death the physical body is left here but the जीव और आत्मा leave and based on The longing and desires and these attachments recorded in the jiv part another birth is taken. Since this variable part is let us say different hence people behave differently. It is just a different level of consciousness in people that makes then behave differently

UB: इष्टान् भोगान् हि वो देवा दास्यन्तेयज्ञभाविताः । तैर्दत्तानप्रदायैभ्यो  यो  भुङ्क्ते  स्तेन  एवसः ॥३.१२॥

The देवाः, propitiated by यज्ञ (यज्ञभाविताः), will give (दास्यन्ते) you (वः) desirable (इष्टान्) objects (भोगान्). Therefore (हि), one (सः) who (यः) enjoys (भुङ्क्ते) objects given (दत्तान्) by them (तैः) without offering (अप्रदाय) to them in return (एभ्यः) is indeed (एव) a thief (स्तेनः).

यज्ञशिष्टाशिनः सन्तो मुच्यन्तेसर्वकिल्बिषैः । भुञ्जते ते  त्वघं  पापा  येपचन्त्यात्मकारणात् ॥३.१३॥

Those who eat food as remnants after performance of यज्ञ (यज्ञशिष्टाशिनः सन्तः), are released (मुच्यन्ते) from impurities (सर्वकिल्बिषैः), whereas (तु) those (ते) sinful people (पापाः) who (ये) cook (पचन्ति) only for themselves (आत्मकारणात्) eat (भुञ्जते) पाप  (अघम्).

UB: 3:12/13 (1) Nature appears to have a certain evident quality. A tree laden with tasty fruits has no use of these fruits; they are for benefit of others. A flowing river has no use of its water; it is meant to benefit others. A plant covered with beautiful flowers has no use of such beauty; it is a visual treat to others. In return, the plant gets nourishment from earth and water from rains. Mother’s milk has no use for the mother but is nectar for the child. Equally, the giggling of a child has no use for the child but heavenly to the mother. Nature seems to be built on the principle that the best within an individual is not meant to be used for self-aggrandisement but meant to be used for others. The best of Lata and Amitabh Bachchan is their voice which is only useful as it gives joy to others; in return, society gives them enough for their upkeep and prosperity and this should be a spur to them to continue to give their best to the world.  All men must similarly perform पञ्चयज्ञ on a daily basis and live for the benefit of others – he must offer नैवेद्य daily to देवता, offer food to the needy, read scriptures, serve parents and perform श्राद्ध to ancestors and feed animals and plant trees. Key principle is to live in line with the principle of creation as mandated by ब्रह्मा Himself viz to live always for others and others only.

UB: 3:12/13 (2) – A guardian is expected to take care of property not as his own but that of the minor. A guardian does get enough for his upkeep but if he exceeds his brief and uses the property for his personal use, he is called a thief and the money he stole is nothing else but sin. This is what भगवान् is stating here. If one who sees all property under his control as his own OR his own body under his control as his own instead of treating such property or his body as a guardian for the benefit of the world, then such a person is a thief if he uses what is in his control for self use only. Our body got formed based on food grown by others, our mind accumulated information from the world, our property belonged to the world but came in our control since we added some value to the world with our work. But just because these are in our possession now does not mean that we own them – we are just their guardian at the present point of time. Relentless focus on our duties to the world at all times and performing these ceaselessly removes ALL impurities (सर्व किल्बिषै) within our mind (wrong ideas about ourselves and the world) and कर्म क्षय (meaning bad karma reduction and good Karma exhaustion) happens through such actions. Such a reduction of पाप will enlarge our vision and take us closer and closer to the Real or परम् – good acts is not to be seen as some noble self evident truth. Morality is not an end in itself or some gateway to heaven; it is merely a means for a higher journey. One must thus have such a guardianship mindset every day when performing all our actions and good actions like charity, etc., are not meant to be performed as a one off (and that too with huge publicity) – so beware of being labelled as a thief by भगवान् or be an eater of पाप.

VB: Parvinder, ur response is nice. Thanks. So an aatma and jeev are what goes from one life to another. Not just aatma. Soul+ karma load

PA: Love the commentary from today! Must make post-its and stick them everywhere as small reminders all the time. Again strengthening the concept of real service and how it should Be done and the background why one should be doing that

UB: अन्नाद्भवन्ति भूतानिपर्जन्यादन्नसम्भवः । यज्ञाद्भवति पर्जन्यो यज्ञः कर्मसमुद्भवः॥३.१४॥

Living beings (भूतानि) are born (भवन्ति) of food (अन्नात्). Food is born (अन्नसम्भवः) of rain (पर्जन्यात्). Rain (पर्जन्यः) is born (भवति) of यज्ञ (यज्ञात्) (पुण्य). यज्ञः (पुण्य) is born of action (कर्मसमुद्भवः).

कर्म ब्रह्मोद्भवं विद्धिब्रह्माक्षरसमुद्भवम् । तस्मात् सर्वगतं ब्रह्म नित्यं यज्ञेप्रतिष्ठितम् ॥३.१५॥

May you understand (विद्धि) karma (कर्म) (ritual, prayer, etc.) to be born of the Veda (ब्रह्मोद्भवम्) and the Veda (ब्रह्म) to be born of the imperishable अक्षर (अक्षरसमुद्भवम्). Therefore (तस्मात्), the all-pervasive (सर्वगतम्) Brahma (ब्रह्म) (the Veda) abides (प्रतिष्ठितम्) always (नित्यम्) in यज्ञ.

एवं प्रवर्तितं चक्रं नानुवर्तयतीह यः । अघायुरिन्द्रियारामो मोघं पार्थ सजीवति ॥३.१६॥

O! पार्थ A person who (यः) does not (न) live (अनुवर्तयति) here in this life (इह), according to the cosmic wheel (चक्रम्) that is already set in motion (प्रवर्तितम्) in this manner (एवम्), and lives in sin (अघायुः) given only on the pleasures of the senses (इन्द्रियारामः), lives (सःजीवति) wastefully (मोघम्).

UB: 3:14/16 – Simplest conception of an ideal state within the Universe in terms of visualizing life as a चक्रम् is another key Indian idea. One can see this idea also coming out in movies like “The Lion King” where the phrase ” circle of life” has been used.  All living beings are made of food – what is our body other than cabbage/ mangoes that have taken shape of a body. For food to come about, rains are necessary – so far so good. What is the link between rains & यज्ञ? Ex – If we take forest as an example, one way to conceive it is as a place that works on the rule ‘Survival of the Fittest’. Look deeper and one can see forest as a place which is self-regenerating where all type of life seem to survive. Forest can thus be seen as a place where plants/ animals live in a यज्ञ mode – they take what is necessary for their survival but give back a lot to the jungle. No wonder our ऋषि found the forest environment as conducive for spiritual.upliftment. A tiger hunts only when hungry viz once in 4-7 days and not for joy of hunting or to keep a few dead goats in a refrigerator to save for the rainy day and then let them go wasted. Ancients thus conceived that if everyone in society lives in a state of यज्ञ, such a society will be prosperous (given as rain here) and riches get generated in such a place. This means each member takes enough from society as is adequate to maintain oneself and use such life to serve others. Many पुराण thus talk about events where the whole society is in distress (famine, etc) and concludes that rising selfishness of people may have caused imbalance in Nature. One sees that the king and citizens decide then to perform a यज्ञ – रामायण in fact starts with such a यज्ञ performed by the king रोमपाद (whose kingdom was facing such times) (he had adopted a girl शांत, elder sister of राम). यज्ञ of course comes from कर्म which is as per steps indicated in the वेद. वेद itself has come out of अक्षर meaning undecaying viz परम्. People who do not sustain the यज्ञ चक्रम् are referred to as इंद्रियाराम: viz those who are living life merely in sense enjoyment unlike people who need to be in the state of आत्माराम: (that will come next). इंद्रियाराम: people upset the balance in the universe since the smooth movement of the चक्रम् is disturbed owing to sensual orientation of its individuals.

UB: All of you must remember the sweet scene from “Gods must be crazy – 1” where the Bushman hunter seeks apology from the deer before killing it since he has to feed his family. The deer is killed in the least harmful way. This is nothing else but this man showing the यज्ञ attitude. This verse thus becomes a मंत्र for environmental attitude (भूतयज्ञ), protection of ancient ज्ञान – व्यास to आर्याभट्ट to Newton to Einstein (ऋषियज्ञ), human rights (मनुष्यज्ञ), continuity of good traditions (पितृयज्ञ) and देवयज्ञ (prayerful & कृतज्ञता attitude towards all forces that impact our life – mind, senses, Sun, Moon ,etc who impact our lives ). All these subjects need not be taught separately as all these diverse perspectives.become part of everyone’s day to day life.

PA: 👏🏻👏🏻 Great explanation UB !! Actually the symbolism of yagna – sacrifice devotional worship – to give. Using this concept in our day to day life in all of our actions with complete awareness with an attitude of seva, doing our best with utmost focus and efficiency , staying humble and grounded and is what is again and again asked of us instead of just one off act of performing special acts of pooja or yagna on special occasions to please Gods for special situations and after that  getting back to our usual ways of self-gratifications and blindness

UB: Yes PA – these acts are meant to be done at all times and not on special occasions only

VB: If we give our thanks to God and think of him daily, without doing an actual pooja, why shud that not be fine? Sookshma offerings r given when we pray mentally or think of him. Why should we do sthool offerings thru daily pooja.

HB: I agree

UB: 😀😀 Good point. Actually, there is no compulsion. One can do this mentally too. But my Youtube Guru gave the following explanation and since then my mental appreciation came to an end and i became स्थूल in my conduct. 😀😀

Most people are स्थूल in their orientation on all daily aspects of the world. When, someone cracks a joke, we laugh out loud in a स्थूल manner. When we meet friends, we meet by shaking hands or embrace them in a स्थूल manner. If we cannot be part of the friends’ meet, we push them to send photos via WA to see them in a स्थूल manner. We keep the photos of our kids/ spouse in our wallet, as desktop photo, on the office table in a स्थूल form. Just imagine a wife who keeps cooking food and her husband never expresses appreciation – she also would want a thank you to be stated or ILU to be expressed in a स्थूल manner. Imagine if we tell her that we still love her mentally and there is no need to express this outside. Her response will assume a स्थूल form.  😀😀😀When we see a snake in our house, the fear on our face is also स्थूल. If all actions of a person are thus expressed in a स्थूल form, it is assumed that such a person expresses love for परम् also in a स्थूल way. He or she will invite Her by beautifying the image, clean the Puja house daily, chant Her praises loudly, break into tears of joy when listening to Her stories, eat food only after making sure that this has been offered to Her too and even sleep in the night with Her besides us. But if all others actions in the world are also done mentally, then a सूक्ष्म expression to परम् too is fine. I could not find a counter argument to this logic 😀😀

HB: Sound argument. Difficult to contest

PA: Bravo UB what a explanation Bhai !!!! Here come a Sthul  👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 And a sincere  🙏🏻🙏🏻

VB: That is different than mortals and does not need sthool offerings. It can read or rather knows what is going through. So those who can offer mentally, it should be fine. He understands.

PK: I agree with VB – I think physical or sthul  offerings is required .. Based on my limited reading this thinking comes  vishishta advaita school of thought that is based on physical and spiritual experience of God thru devotion ( Bhakti) vs advaita philosophy of Adi shankara which says just knowing the nature of self and God advaita/ non- dual is sufficient (brahmagyan) .. In thus school I would presume to opine that Sookshma would be considered as equal to sthula .., I also feel that more people prefer the vishishta advaita philosophy or the qualified non/ dualism of Ramana us and hence the emphasis of many gurus on Bhakti .., my 2 cents and as I have said before I could be totally wrong as I only wading into this …Sthul is not required is what I meant. I am coming to the belief that for VB and me the Adi Shankara’s gyan marg resonates .., which does not involve much worship or devotion and Nostradamus stress on the non- duality of the soul and brahm. I think the Bhakti marg proposed by ramanujacharya resonates more with the guru Uday is quoting from ..,which stresses more on the devotion to god rather than brahmgyan or knowledge of the non/ dual nature of brahm .. The philosophies are not majorly different yet there is a difference in the emphasis of how achieves union with supreme consciousness. To me at least this difference is why some parts of this third chapter is different from the rational , more gyan oriented tone of the second chapter .., again happy to have any of you poke holes in my novice theory 😃😃

VB: I agree with PK. As long as I understand and work towards the end objective, path to reach there is a matter of personal choice.

HB: In all this discussion, we are assuming there is a choice. And we are assuming that these are the only two ways

PK: There is definitely a choice .. There are two schools of thought defined by folks smarter than us 😃😃. Are they the only two ways? That I do not know 😃😃

HB: Let’s assume for a moment that since both choices are created by humans, there may be an error. The two simplistic choices may reflect our our need to simplify due to our limited ability to comprehend. Maybe there are other ways that we are completely unaware of. The reason I say this is I have to find anyone following any of the prescribed path who could say with conviction that they have met or are one with him

PK: Anything is possible .. These two authors ( Adi shankarA  and ramanujacharya ) are however universally acknowledged as learned enlightened souls…, who are thought to have way more gravitas than any living gurus ..,most gurus today will acknowledge one of the other as their source. Most gurus will tell you if you ask them if they believe in dvaita ( duality , least common) , advaita( non/ duality) or vishishta advaita ( qualified non- duality ). In my mind, this is somewhat though not totally to the Christian philosophical question of is Christ God ( son of God is God) or mortal ( msn) ?

HB: Agreed both are way ahead of all.  But who is to say that they are completely correct. These are again jargon.

PK: That is a question I definitely am not qualified to answer 😃😃😃

HB: He is said to be god’s son and it was divine conception. Can there be divine conception?

PK: Yes, but is he GoD or man? Sounds like you believe he is God

PK: Hinduism has an explanation as we believe in avatars .. We have no problem believing that Vishnu took birth and lives as a mortal Ram to show us how an ideal man and King should live and rule respectively .., Christianity still wrestles with the question of if Jesus was God as he lived or man during his lifetime ? I am always assumed by the divine conception theory .. They have no Devi or Shakthi concept so they need to resort that 😃

HB: No, I think we pray to people who have super human qualities. He was man

PK: The Holy Ghost can only do do so much 😃😃

HB: So was Rama and Krishna. 😀 And Yes, there is no feminine part

PK: Hinduism is freaking sophisticated in that regard .. 😃😃

HB: Yes, I would say they are logical

PK: It truly emphasizes the make and female strengths as two halves of a whole (similar to all Asian philosophies)

HB: The complementary model

PK: In addition , at least in my limited knowledge Hinduism gives one 3 paths to sttain salvation .. Karm (work/ duty) , gyan and Bhakti … I think each person chooses the path best suited to their level of evolution or prarabdha ..

PK: It is now that I am understanding how these learned scholars like Adi shankarA and ramanujacharya sliced and diced these Gita sholkas and presumably the Vedas to come up with these unifying theories of Hinduism .. It is fascinating. Until now it seemed disconnected , now thanks to Uday I am beginning to recognize the glimmers of connection 😃 Ramanujacharya actually disagreed with his own guru Adi Sanjara when he formulated Vishista advaita 😃

HB: Is dissent appreciated in Hinduism

PK: Dissent is an integral part of Hinduism From  what I have seen in my very limited reading .., I have another friend ( my husband’s classmate) who got me to read these definitions etc.. When we meet next he had vowed to convince me on the superiority of Vishista advaita 😃😃.., I was telling him the original advaita is more my cup of tea ..,it’s actually fascinating this journey we are on .. Raag and my sis are both more knowledgable than me as well .. I am an empty vessel with a few nuggets making awaaz😃😃😃 But hopefully learning 😃😃😃

HB: I emptier😂 And I am not even sure I am learning😰

PK: Satsang is the first step .. We are in August company so I live in hope 😃😃😃

HB: My chances of meeting Him looks very bleak

PK: We are the elementary school students amongst college grads and phds😃😃

HB: They are sure and confident of their choices while I am not

PK: Step by step .., we are just starting … Long way to go but being here is better than not thinking about this at all 🙏

HB: Very true

PK: That’s what I tell myself .., assuming we have another 20yeats left 😃😃

HB: It’s nice, I mean really nice to get up and read a shloka. 20 years, looks steep

PA: actually the discussion that तत् or परम which is सर्वव्यापक is what we all agree and of course one can offer one self daily in prayers by thanking, gratitude a constant remembrance. This is the part on the basis of which your actions are hued in the colour of divine love and and this divine nectar starts flowing into ones daily actions not only towards fellow humans but also plants animals, remembrance of ancestors, reverence and respect for the spiritual masters who have shown us the path again and again so in other words the full gamut of sentients. This thought process reduces our sort of ownership and encourage humbleness. This beautiful Action explained in this chapter of Karma yoga is what yagna is about – of course for people who choose contemplation over action yes sure.. But tell me what is possible without love and devotion on either of the ways?

PK: Totally agree 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽

HB: Parvinder, when I meet few people I don’t like, it’s difficult to feel divine nectar. Forgiveness doesn’t come easy. And then we are back to square one

PK: Love I get Peru … Nothing an be done without love .. Gratitude I get .., we are blessed in our lives.. We got opportunities and though we worked hard there are many who do not have what we got ., so I do feel that many hands help us in getting to where we are.., no man is an island ! Devotion to me though is more synonymous with unquestioning submission or worship .., I do wonder if I am stuck in semantics but my analytic mind wants things defined very well in my head , love, gratitude  and devotion are different things ..

PK: HB : I do hear you .. Same to same problem ! I am learning to ignore .. A distant cousin to forgiveness 😃😃

HB: It’s nonviolent option; but easier

PK: AK was telling me today about how the goal is to increase your sphere of love or influence .. Will let her explain .. I get it conceptually but it’s hard for me to truly understand when you all talk divine nectar or divine love feeling .. My love seems very human but it’s Better than no love 😃Hopefully someday .. One step at a time

AK: I usually tell myself they are having a very bad day when I meet folks who are rude for no reason. And for folks we know well but don’t rub along well, I feel they are having a bad couple of months :). If we can continue to keep our optimism and not get upset that’s a win in my book for now. 😀

HB: Actually that’s exactly what I proposed in my model of nonviolence. To cognitively re- interpret the situation. It is to separate the man from his action. But there is limit to how many times one can give benefit of doubt. Even Krishna forgave shishupal 1000 apradh

AK: Was reading the self unfoldment book by Chinmayananda and that mentioned people can be classified into labourers, workers and persons of achievement (PA). The difference is not in the work they do but in the way they do it. Labourer is someone who works for his her personal gain, works for his family alone. Worker is less selfish and is inspired by a higher ideal and not just profit. Here the ego is less compared to labourer. Finally PA who work for the entire mankind like saints. I liked this and made me think what I can do which I enjoy which is more on the ‘give’ side rather than quid pro quo.

PK: Interesting classification … I am probably a worker … Squeezing into that category mostly 😃

UB: यस्त्वात्मरतिरेव स्यादात्मतृप्तश्चमानवः ।आत्मन्येव  च सन्तुष्टस्तस्य कार्यं नविद्यते ॥३.१७॥

Whereas (तु), for the person (तस्य) who (यः मानवः) would (एवस्यात्) delight in the self (आत्मरतिः), who is satisfied with the self (आत्मतृप्तः च), contented (सन्तुष्टः च) in the self (आत्मनि) alone (एव) there is nothing (नविद्यते) to be done (कार्यम्).

नैव तस्य कृतेनार्थो नाकृतेनेह कश्चन । न  चास्य  सर्वभूतेषु कश्चिदर्थव्यपाश्रयः॥३.१८॥

For that person (तस्य), there is indeed (एव) no (न) purpose (अर्थः) here in this world (इह) for doing (कृतेन) or (कश्चन न) not doing action (अकृतेन). Nor (न च) does such a person (अस्य) depend on any being (सर्वभूतेषु) for any (कश्चित्) object whatsoever (अर्थव्यपाश्रयः).

तस्मादसक्तः सततं कार्यं कर्म समाचर। असक्तो ह्याचरन्कर्म परमप्नोति पूरुषः ॥३.१९॥

Therefore (तस्मात्), always (सततम्) perform well (समाचर) the action (कर्म) that is to be done (कार्यम्) without attachment (असक्तः) because (हि) by performing (आचरन्) action (कर्म) without attachment (असक्तः), a person (पूरुषः) attains (अप्नोति) the highest (परम्).

UB: 3:17-19: Post Independence Day, here is a verse on a free man. What does freedom of man really mean? Gita gives its own unique definition – A free person, an आत्माराम:, is one who is blissful within himself. By our very nature, as per Gita, we are full and complete. However, this unlimited us over a long span of multiple lives ended up accumulating impurities (viz पाप) and ended up thinking of us as limited – this is an unnatural overlay on the true vision. In पञ्चतंत्र, we have read stories where a lion cub who lived among goats trying to bleat as a goat or a prince living among tribals forgot his true kingly nature – these stories actually refer to our state and not to be taken as pop stories. There is also a story of  इंद्र when cursed to be born as a pig and live among pigs in a ditch wanted to remain there even after he was made to remember his इंद्र status since he was worried about his pig wife & pig kids. Because we identify with the limited, we end up seeking limited pleasures thinking that these give us joy.  However, limited joys are perishable like joy of eating out or watching a cinema on weekends gets over and we become empty again and repeat the same experience again to fill up our (bottomless) cup of joy. All of us will remember our first visit with our spouse to a fancy restaurant or vividly remember stunts performed during our honeymoon  and the joy we felt in those instances. However, all other hundreds of later visits do not stay as vividly in our memory – why? Adding more and more water (meaning acquiring perishable joys) into our cup of joy which is already brimful with अमृत is a similar such action. An आत्माराम however is able to connect with his FULLNESS state and does not  need to fill up his life by doing actions that bring perishable joys THOUGH HE MAY ALSO BE EATING OUT OR LISTENING TO MUSIC OR WATCHING A CINEMA. Thus, while we may be tuned to think that a person acts only if he needs something from the act, Krishna here goads अर्जुन that once a person is free also, He performs action but such an action is a free action and therefore objective and more effective. In fact, such an action is actually non-action as per Gita as we will see later.

UB: An intense discussion yesterday evening. 👍👍👏 Some of our perspectives will be addressed by Gita as we progress further. It is will interesting to look back at some of our earlier debates as we progress further into this.

UB: VB – I am just a recent convert to स्थूल style (done inconsistently of course) and have observed that even keeping the mind glued on to परम् even for those ten minutes is proving to be very very difficult. Come to think of it , स्थूल worship is also mental only except that we have some मूर्ति in front of us to aid us in concentration. Even this is damn difficult. However, by forcing oneself to sit for ten mins in front of us makes us get practice of discipline and it is this discipline that will prepare us in doing mental prayer for a longer time later. To sum up, we do not give up स्थूल worship because He or She is fine with mental prayer but because we are inherently स्थूल in our orientation today and that works for us. As Krishna will say later on, even after one develops good control over the mind, स्थूल actions must continue. This will come further on.

UB: PK – An Advaitin is not against rituals; Buddhists are. Shankara himself established Mutt in four (or five) regions, installed Sarada in Sringeri, Vishnu in Badri, Shiva in Pashupati, etc. His own Mutt even today scrupulously follows all types of rituals daily as well as on special occasions. And when reads some of the literature credited to Shankara like सौंदर्यलहरी where every part of the body is described in great detail both physically as well as its spiritual meaning, it becomes evident that Shankara as non-ritualistic is not the real Shankara. We are merely ascribing our own inclinations on to Shankara 😀😀. And if you go to Far East, one will see Buddhist temples too with bells and incense and large sized मूर्ति within these temples. One must not forget that our own innate orientation is physical and we by nature are tuned to physical expression. And there is nothing wrong with this too – all types of Sadhana are divine provided our body and mind is engaged in परम्. Type of philosophy, type of मूर्ति, type of prayer (mental/ physical), etc thus become less important as long as the क्रिया is well intentioned and works for us effectively. Whatever works, works !!!!!

VB: Agree UB. Whatever works, works. I do agree that having a murti or task to work on helps focuses your mind. And in that sense, pooja helps. Meditation, listening to chants, chanting yourself all work. I also feel that it is the intensity of the time that u spend that matters. I spend max 10 mins daily. But I feel, that I spend it wisely on this. Still tremendous scope to improve though. And I do it when I get/make time . No fixed slot. I cannot imagine myself doing it at a fixed time everyday. It would then become a chore.  Anyways, different people different strokes. I like attending a satyanarayan pooja or a rudra. Helps me focus on that moment and I come out of that feeling calm, nice and happy. Cannot say why. But wud I do it every month? Guess not.

HB: I don’t any rituals by choice. I saw my parents do it, I am following it at my- laws be it ganapati, Gauri, navratra, shravan, margshirsh etc. given s choice, I may be ok not doing any of it. I don’t even pray for myself. My most precious moments are when I talk to Him. It’s always him, wonder why. Let me tell u it is pretty much monologue, there is never a response coming from the other side, which make u wonder if He is listening or what?

VB: I like ganpati…I do not do at my home but attend society poojas

HB: We have everything. With each festivity, there are different sweets. Ukadi Che Modak, Puran poli etc. that part is hard work and lot of fun😊

VB: 😀😀

HB: Sometimes, it really loses the objective of connecting to the param

PK: I agree with all regarding different strokes for different folks .. Whatever works 😃😃😃. I like the reading of sholkas esp if I know the context or meaning : definitely like some more than others ..,soundaryalahiri which UB referenced I do not care much for but love Vishnusaharanam and line instead feel calm and grounded after listening ..,reading about these topics keeps me in flow and for those 15- 20 minutes I feel focused .. Like u all I do not do this regularly cos then just like VB it feels like a chore😃 I do feel that there are many paths to the top of the mountain and the main thing is to want to get there .. Some take a focused approach, some like me meander thru detours 😃😃😃..,we are all looking for what suits our temperament and strengths .., my pragmatic belief is that if it is a struggle it’s probably not worth it.. One should leverage one’s strength and to me struggling for peace is a inherent contradiction .., felling strongly and deeply yet easing gently .., far easier said than done 😃😃 Most difficult for my ego is to do something if I do not grasp its significance .., the only reason to do such things is for love … Cos folks you love wish it and it makes them happy .., it makes me happy when they are happy but it’s delusion at least for me to pretend that the actual doing gives me peace when it does it means nothing

HB: Nicely summed up, PK👌👏👏👏

PK: Being mentally faithful to oneself to me is critical .., what you project to the world is far less important ..,,there are only very few folks with whom one has the luxury of being brutally honest and who still love despite that …I am blessed to have a couple .., I think most people rarely say or do what they truly feel .., even getting to that stage is a big thing .. Honesty is expensive and most folks are cheap .. In their soul I mean .., not$$$

HB: 😊 it’s better to be dishonest and appear to enjoy the rituals rather than shocking, or scaring old folks who are completely  sure of their ritualistic approach.

PK: Agree .. We all do it .. Me especially ..,I think there is nothing wrong with that .., including the rituals and worship of various forms and types .. it’s important I thnk however to introspect critically within one’s mind and distinguish the reason we are doing things .. An unexamined life is not worth living .. In this group the corallary is less important to state that thus requires that we live a life worthy of examining 😃 Introspection and examination at all time high at this age ⚡ Yup .. Mid point now so course correction may be possible … 😃😃😃..,one version of a mid- life crisis 😃😃.. And far superior to getting a divorce and shacking up with a younger partner, buying a Porsche to impress the world that you are successful etc etc .. All of which not uncommon at all here in amreeka😃😃

PA: I understand the problem of our mind coming in the way all the time – it’s normal and it’s no wonder it’s said that मन जीते जगजीत. PK have you got a chance to read the book. Proof of heaven by the renowned Neurosurgeon by Eben Alexander? He describes his near death experience when he was literally for a week brain dead for the outside world and he was going through the most incredible trip on the inside. The problem with the cosmic knowledge is that you first have to believe the. You see. Our normal 3 dimensional world bound by time and space is that you first see and then believe. Our mind / ego has the function of all the time to question as its function is protection preservation defense mechanism – lives in past of future based on experiences of past and fears of future. Your heart is timeless boundless and knows amazingly everything all the time – that is Krishna living with you all the time guiding you. It is the space of the moment or now. Sometime it asks us to take paths that our mind will reject immediately – saying how is it possible ?? This cannot be !!! But that is what is our higher self calling us to do an action. There are perhaps no rituals  necessary for a person who has already has developed this ability to live in the now. I personally believe that if one is pushed so much to ones limit and is completely given up on this world there is a good chance of getting enlightened or ending ones life Or One practices sadhana meditation whatever one feels helps him or her because this is a skill that needs to developed – staying in calmness compassion and equanimity. I feel it does require a bit of effort as we are not in the first category. No offense at all to anyone as I myself also struggle and fall all the time  question sometimes is it worth it? Mind wanders in many directions during prayers but sometimes as you said experience that flow and moment of peace- mind stops and that’s the space where Krishna sits an waits for us all the time – one feels happy because you just touched your original form which is bliss

HB: I think I am going to read that book

VB: PK, u said “…the only reason to do such things is for love … Cos folks you love wish it and it makes them happy .., it makes me happy when they are happy but it’s delusion at least for me to pretend that the actual doing gives me peace when it does it means nothing”. It is not delusion. It is willful action that u want to do something that you don’t believe in. It makes you happy to see ones who you love happy. It is giving you peace. Your ego doesn’t want to admit that as it would then mean that you do things you don’t believe in. And it would go against your founding belief. I am at peace when I do this. I see nothing wrong. I believe I made an educated choice to be irrational and it is fine as it was an educated choice. Anyways, that is how I theorize. To each his own.

PK: I agree with you VB -I do not think it is wrong to be irrational at all as long as one is conscious of it-I do many things I do not believe in because folks around me are happy when I do it and making them happy is very important to me.

PK: I like uday’s explanation of how it is the sun’s job to give heat and light .., we do not expect it to give fruits 😃😃😃.., we all have our faults and strengths and it makes sense to leverage one’s aptitude 😃😃😃

PA: Hmm interesting well the best part is that PK you are so honest!!! However I would like to share with you a real life example from or own Dr Nitin Ron. He was our 1 year senior and my neighbour

http://youtu.be/jGcL_nFDXGE. Try looking at this and see the effect of love kindness and prayers can do and make illnesses vanish and be cured too ! There is no scientific rational proof of it one would say but it works !!

PK: Peru ; I have no problem believing that love and prayer help .., I do think that the mind is very powerful and for many patients the knowledge that folks are praying for them and sending messages of love and support Is very helpful in their healing and undergoing treatment side effects , I have no doubts about that at all. Belief in the treatment (heard prayer and goodwill messages are part of the treatment ) is definitely important – that’s why placebos work too- the patient think it’s a drug and we all know and have seen placebo effect .. Can it cure diseases lie advanced cancer completely? I do not think so but my take is that in life threatening conditions one must do all that helps and in that sense for many patients and also for their families I encourage it strongly .., however do I believe that a patient who is not being prayed for ( all other factors being controlled ) will definitely die? My answer would be that if the patient is not aware of the fact then it probably does not matter at all ; however the  knowledge that no one is praying may impact him or her if patient is religious .., in other words it is the belief in the prayers or placebo that makes it work.., it’s the mind exerting an effect which is superior to medicines ..as we said before whatever works , works … Yoga , Mind discipline ( cheerful, engaged) are very very useful in chronic disease like diabetes , arthritis etc … Such patients do much better than depressed anxious patients with same level of disease. Thank you for calling me honest Peru ..I try but fail as often as I succeed…In this group I do try to give my honest opinions … Most times I just keep quiet or ignore 😃😃😃 Being kind and honest is tough .., and in the end I also believe that the former matters more .., I am full of contradictions waiting to be resolved 😂😂😂…

PA: You said it dear PK!!! That’s what counts and is what is One of the most important things ! Stay blessed and loving as you are 👍🏻👍🏻

UB: कर्मणैव हि संसिद्धिमास्थिताजनकादयः । लोकसङ्ग्रहमेवापिसम्पश्यन्कर्तुमर्हसि ॥३.२०॥

Indeed (हि), by action (कर्मणा) alone (एव), जनक  & others (जनकादयः) gained (आस्थिताः) liberation (संसिद्धिम्). Also (अपि), by merely (एव) seeing (सम्पश्यन्) the desirablility of protecting the people from falling into unbecoming ways (लोकसङ्ग्रहम्) you ought (अर्हसि) to perform action (कर्तुम्).

यद्यदाचरति श्रेष्ठस्तत्तदेवेतरो जनः । स  यत्प्रमाणं कुरुते लोकस्तदनुवर्तते ॥३.२१॥

Whatever (यत् यत्) an important person (श्रेष्ठः) does (आचरति), that (तत् तत्) alone (एव) the other (इतरः) people (जनः) do [आचरति]. Whatever (यत्) that person (सः) sets (कुरुते) as proper (प्रमाणम्), the world of people (लोकः) follows (अनुवर्तते) that (तत्).

UB: 3:20/21 – 3:21 this is a celebrated verse that needs to be mandated as an oath by people in position of power. People in society conduct themselves or mould their life as per the leaders or people taken as श्रेष्ठ: (role models) in their societies. अर्जुन is thus being told to lead by example so that he sets a standard of a क्षत्रिय warrior for others too to emulate. All of us need real examples to be sure that whatever श्रीकृष्ण is stating is  practical not just theoretical gibberish. In almost all ancient literature, जनक is stated as a model king (not Sita’s father; जनक is more like a lineage or family name of kings ruling areas around जनकपुर). Few of the जनक are referred to as स्थितप्रज्ञ but more importantly, they are deemed as ideal example of a कर्मयोगी – almost all पुराण contains an event where many ऋषि/ learned people reach out to जनक to seek अध्यात्म advice from him. These exchanges are fascinating. गांधी, तिलक, विनोबा भावे, विवेकानंद, Aurobindo, etc were hugely inspired by the कर्मयोगी ideal in the Gita. When युधिष्ठिर once approached श्रीकष्ण at his palace, he was surprised to see Him perform पूजक्रिया and asked him why does a ज्ञानी  like him need to do these things. He replied that He has to follow the rules He himself had set and He is thus bound by his own rules. In the Mbh, it is said that they used to stop the war daily to perform Sandhya rituals in the middle of the war meaning that नित्यकर्म must never be stopped no matter where you are. Thus, a  स्थितप्रज्ञ is also meant to continue to engage in wordly activities  more animatedly since others in the society look up to Him for inspiration. Instead, if He thinks he has achieved the Highest and need not therefore bother about the rules meant for lower mortals, others will only learn this deviant aspect as an example and spoil their own lives through wrongful emulation. Greater achievement, Greater power, Greater responsibility is the message here.

PK: I like this … Analogous to ” to whom much is given , much is expected “

VN: Absolutely true “with power comes responsibilities” sadly this is conveniently forgotten by the people in power.