PA: 👏🏻👏🏻👍 The last verses slowly lay the foundation for the next chapter where Bhakti is of primary importance . Complete surrender complete sharanagadi. If one is completely surrendered to God then there would not be a question of attachment to the results of one work. It’s like for example we are doing everything for our master so what ownership do I have for anything that is attained? As it belongs to the master and he gives us in form of prasad which we enjoy.  So what stops us from being in this state of mind? Our limiting belief of we being the doer and being separate from everything around us.  The biggest paradox is we the infinite being trapped in this body which makes us think we are somehow separate from everything around us

UB: 👍🏼👍🏼You have indeed focussed on the important verse – the last verse is a key one. This is inserting भक्ति in everything – work for His sake meaning कर्मयोग with भक्ति, think about Him meaning ज्ञानयोग also with भक्ति apart from others. This verse is similar to the last verse of Ch 9. And if people think भक्ति is easy, I am sure PK will shatter all those myths as we go through Ch 12 😀.

PK: Yikes! You have chosen the most incompetent person for this task UB 😃😃… I barely understand the concept of bhakthi …the concept of surrender seems unfathomable to me .., seems to go against every grain of my being 😃😃gratitude, focus , non- attachment etc I have at least a fledgling grasp of 😃😃😃… bhakthi and me still need to make a decent acquaintance 😃😃😃.., too much ego I guess ! for everybody’s sake maybe you should continue ? 😃😃

UB: Hahaha – we discussed earlier. Surrender to भगवान् just means doing धर्म. It is not following anyone. And of course by the end of this small Ch, you will become an expert. 😀 Waiting eagerly…… 👍🏼👍🏼

PK: I sorta get doing karm without expectations and trying to learn (attempting to attain Gyan ) – that seems to be a reasonable way to follow svadharm ? Still don’t get where bhakthi fits or why it is so necessary? 😃😃 Surrender without understanding why we are surrendering seems difficult – I get the randomness of human life- very little is really in our control but a little IS and it is up to us to make the most of it – both in service / meaning work and learning . Can you explain bhakthi?

UB: Let us do this Ch and learn what Bhakti stands for along the way.

PK: Ok! Will do

PA: Perhaps one definition as you’ve always said PK. Go with the flow!  The whole idea of being in opposition to the way things are is one cause of our misery

PK: 👍👍 https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2017/03/14/null-und-eins-aphorisms/ May interest some of you 😃 👆🏼philosophical Semantics,a mind-game for those with interest in metaphysics.

PA: Saw a very nice movie yesterday which is a biopic on  Osho. The film is on his initial years till his enlightenment. The film is called The Rebellious flower and is available on YouTube on HD quality. So watch it if you get a chance

UB: Will watch it – thanks 👍🏼

PK: I am starting Chapter 12 … I have to apologize that I may not be as prompt and regular as UB. I would like to request you to post your comments after my rudimentary efforts of explanation so it would benefit us all 🙏🙏🙏

PK: एवं सततयुक्ता ये भक्तास्त्वां पर्युपासते। येचाप्यक्षरमव्यक्तं तेषां केयोगवित्तमाः।।12.1।।

12.1 अर्जुन said Among those (तेषां) devotees (भक्ता:) who (ये), in this same way (एवं), are always dedicated (to You) (सततयुक्ता) and meditate onto (पर्युपासते) You (त्वां), and those again (who meditate) (ये च अपि) on the formless (अव्यक्तम्) अक्षर, who (के) are the best knowers of योग (योगवित्तमाः)?

श्री भगवानुवाच

मय्यावेश्य मनो ये मां नित्ययुक्ता उपासते। श्रद्धया परयोपेतास्ते मेयुक्ततमा मताः।।12.2।।

12.2 The भगवान् said! Those who (ये) placing (आवेश्य) their minds in Me (मयि मन:), being always committed (नित्य युक्ता), and being endowed (उपेता) with ultimate trust (परया श्रद्धया) seek Me (माम् उपासते), they (ते) are considered (मता:) to be the best knowers of योग(युक्ततमा) by Me.

PK: 12:1-2 –  I think this is a critical question – Arjuna asks the Lord whic he prefers / favors ; his devotees to worship his divine forms ( Saguna) with unmitigated devotion ( Saguna bhakthi) vs. those devotees who  attempt to find his true reality as the unmanifested Brahman (nirakaar or nirguna  form). The answer by the Lord seems to favor the Saguna bhakt who adores and is immersed totally in the Lord’s form but the subtext seems to imply that the other path is much harder for the unprepared / novice. This seems practical advice by a Master to advocate for the doable path by disciples (achieve some success in chosen path) vs advocating a difficult path that is prone to being abandoned.  My sense, which may be completely erroneous, is that this does not necessarily imply that one path is superior to another (as is sometimes touted)  ; there are many paths to the top of the mountain and it would make sense to choose paths that play to one’s core strengths/ natural inclinations ( Prarabdh would be included here) recognizing fully that some paths are favoured by many for a reason ; the path less travelled can be lonely and that can be irksome to some  😃

UB: Perfect commentary 👍🏼👍🏼. This Q often gets debated by practitioners as to which idea of भगवान् is true – निर्गुण or सगुण amd is thus a critical question. The next few verses do show which path भगवान् prefers – and you are right. Choose as per one’s inclination as we all will surely get to the same place irrespective of the path.

PA: Wow PK 👏🏻👏🏻 Definitely not a novice attempt that you have made at the commentary. Great work and yes agree that worshipping the form less lord may be difficult in initial stages instead of making a personal relation with for example a statue of lord Krishna and worshipping with single pointed devotion.  Of course the ultimate is to realize the presence of God everywhere

PK: Thank you UB and PK for your encouragement – you have made my weekend 🙏🙏🙏🙏

HB: Agree – sagun roop is very appealing and easy to identify with

MK: Thank you HB & PK!! Am very happy to be here and am a complete novice…so am really enjoying reading your thought through discussions 😊 Do the verses 11.48-54 say that even if we are righteous and follow Dharma by doing right Karmas, we will be able to glance Krishna’s विश्व रूप only through unswerving faith or devotion…only through unconditional love for him…भक्ति प्रेम …which of course is the next step after following धर्म

UB: It is a yes and a no. Yes in the sense that just doing कर्म as per our धर्म is of no use without भक्ति. No in the sense that only a true भक्त is capable of doing कर्म as per our धर्म all the time. Therefore,  do धर्म all the time and over a period of time, one will gain enough ज्ञान about भगवान् which will translate into अनन्य भक्ति. Hope this is not confusing 😀

MK: 😀 No it isn’t …it’s true they are interlinked and unless we are able to perform कर्म with true धर्म we cannot have true भक्ति..towards each other or towards भगवान…i was thinking about this while writing earlier

UB: 👍🏼

PK: Awesome – really enjoyed it! In this Trump – era of alternative reality that we are living in I took comfort from the assurance that the universe law of righteousness is inevitable 👍👍👍

HB: We can see more of the manifest form of vishwaroop now as compared to 5000 years ago. It’s the unmanifest (time) that we cannot see.  I think if there is faith and will of god, it will be revealed. Chapter 8 verse 14 suggests that the “one who always remembers me without deviation, I am easy to obtain”. 11.7 suggests that Lord allows his Bhakt to see whatever the Bhakt wants see. If one thinks of lord as a small child with great powers, u will actually see a child with mystical powers and so on. Arjun wanted to see the cosmic form and do he did. I really wonder if it is as simple as that 😊

PK: I worry in the simplistic model how one distinguishes a self/ fulfilling prophecy / delusion from actual truth? This is my fear of some gurus who claim that they know the “truth” and have seen the “Lord” .., I have a suspicious mind that is not easily convinced …sigh ! Many lifetimes of this … shanai shanai 😃😃😃

PA: 👍👍😊 They say that if the student is ready the teacher will appear by itself. A story that always comes to my mind is when a devotee asked Ramakrishna that how he could meet god and what he should do for that. Ramakrishna took him to the river and forced his head under water until he was really gasping got help and life. The idea was that until one has such a longing for god just like the longing for life when one was under water things will remain the same. To know truth and to awaken one somehow must be really be completely desire just that and nothing else.  One can also interpret this as undying devotion

PK: I like the analogy … I also believe in what you have said – we attract the folks who are in our lives – that are there to teach us something and in a much small group learn from us 😃😃

PK: ये त्वक्षरमनिर्देश्यमव्यक्तं पर्युपासते। सर्वत्रगमचिन्त्यं च कूटस्थमचलंध्रुवम्।।12.3।।

संनियम्येन्द्रियग्रामं सर्वत्र समबुद्धयः। ते प्राप्नुवन्ति मामेव सर्वभूतहितेरताः।।12.4।।

12.3-4 Whereas those who (ये तु) seek Me (पर्युपासते) as अक्षर which cannot be described (अनिर्देश्यम्), formless (cannot be seen by senses) (अव्यक्तं), that which is present everywhere (सर्वत्रगम्),  which cannot be conceived by the mind (अचिन्त्यं),  which remains (true) in the apparent (कूटस्थम्), immovable (अचलम्) and permanent (ध्रुवम् च), completely master (संनियम्य) their organs (इन्द्रियग्रामं), whose vision remains same (समबुद्धयः) towards everything (सर्वत्र) and who are dedicated (रता:) to the welfare (हिते) of all beings (सर्वभूत),  they (ते) attain (प्राप्नुवन्ति) only Me (माम् एव).

PK: 12: 3-4 The Lord clarifies that those who worship the formless aspect of Brahman/Absolute Truth ( akṣharam—the imperishable; anirdeśhyam—the indefinable; avyaktam—the unmanifest ; achintyam—the unthinkable;  kūṭa-stham—the unchanging) can also attain union with HIM. This can be attempted by controlling  the senses ( drawing  oneself  inward),  modifying one’s temperament ( calm without bursts of  volatile emotion)  and  beyond the limited power of human senses and being engaged in selfless work for the welfare of all. Personally, at this point, I have to admit that attempting to strive on this path ( in which I have a long long way to ) appeals to me slightly more as it appears to be  a reasonably tangible way of   self-improvement  and giving back – sort of  a step towards “ To whom much is given, much will be required” { Bible, Luke 12;48}  compared to  chanting/pujas to an idol at home or at famous temples etc, but then what do I know?

PK: सक्तचेतसाम्ऽधिकतरस्तेषामव्यक्तासक्तचेतसाम्। अव्यक्ता हि गतिर्दुःखंदेहवद्भिरवाप्यते।।12.5।।

12.5 Among those (तेषाम्) whose mind is committed (आसक्त चेतसाम्) to the Formless (अव्यक्तम्), affliction (or difficulty) (क्लेश:) is greater (अधिकतर:), because (हि) a goal (गति:) of reaching (अवाप्यते) the Formless (अव्यक्ता) is difficult (दु:खं) for those who are देहवत् (identified with their body) (देहवद्भि:)

PK: 12:5 The Lord cautions again that worship of the formless (nirakaar and nirguna) Brahman is very challenging /difficult (compared to the saguna bhakt). Again, I do agree that that it is easier for most of us who an have affinity with a physical form of the Lord to relate and find the SagunaBhakthi path easier to focus one’s mind on the Lord vs focussing on the dry/intellectual/impersonal form of Brahman. There are probably very few folks, disciples of Adi Sankara like Ramana Maharishi who has achieved success on this path of worship of Brahman/the unmanifest form of the Lord. I truly think however “Grace”, which is what we are looking for is attainable and is dependent not on the path but more on the attitude/sharaddha  of the devotee ( gyan agni dagd karmanam, following svadharm ) which is affirmed by the Lord previously in Chapter 4;11-12 (  Those who worship me in any way that pleases them, I bless them in the way they recognize/identify . There are many paths to come to me-“Jo tees Bhave so aarthi hove” as quoted by  PK before👌

PA: Grace is dependent not in the path but on our attitude – very well said PK 👏🏻👏🏻🙏👏🏻

UB: Wonderful PK 👍🏼👍🏼👌🏼 especially since you have done cross referencing which is possibly the best way to learn the entire message of the Gita. In these verses, in a sense, भगवान् has dispensed with the need for a debate on which is better. Both are good and, as we saw in the 8th Ch – All types reach Her. What is therefore probably key is to know ourselves first before we choose a style. If we like going for a holiday and experience a sense of WOW in one place that is more than another, we are गुण oriented. If we feel good at eating out on weekends or eating our favorite food items vis a vis others or if we feel great among friends vis a vis other colleagues or if we like certain kind of music and feel repelled at other kind of music, we are गुण oriented. And a गुण oriented person will tend to be better at सगुण उपासना. One must note that even a सगुणी knows that the ultimate has no गुण but still he must do सगुण उपासना since he has a body. And why just a सगुणी, even the great आदि शंकर has set up temples and prescribed rituals that the शंकरमठ आचार्य still follow to date. So how does one do सगुण उपासना vis a vis one who does निर्गुण उपासना? That then becomes the key question.

PK: And the answer is coming up I hope ? 😃😃

UB: Need to study more on this. My own sense is as follows – if we have a preference for intellect, we may focus on सरस्वती as our इष्ट in our home and be part of book clubs, distribute books to others and spend more time in libraries outside our home. If we are female oriented, we may chant ललिता सहस्रानन and read देवी भागवतम् in our home and engage in women emancipation by focusing on women’s issues outside the home. If we are physical strength oriented, we do हनुमान् उपासना at home and focus on health and strength issues on the outside. All these are types of सगुण उपासना. Over time, a high level of engagement with our इष्ट will make us adopt धर्म oriented behaviour not just in our choice of profession but we end up seeing the presence of our इष्ट in all aspects. Thus, a strength oriented person will start observing strength even in the acts of an ant and one will be forced to expand strength to include mental strength too. One oriented towards books will realize that ज्ञान is not just bookish one but also in simple acts done by all in daily life from where learning can happen. This expansion will make us see similarity in deeds of all देवता as representing all facets. Once we reach this level, a certain type of “acceptance for all” seeps in automatically within us. All our subsequent acts then get done with the principle of “acceptance for all” working at all times. We thus end up doing धर्म at all times instead of getting swayed by our own गुण preference. We thus become ready for निर्गुण idea and all our acts post this level become निर्गुण उपासना. Do note however that this is my tentative answer.

PK: Interesting – I need to  think more  about it … my first instinct is to play devil’s advocate and question need for isthadevta? One could proceed to next step directly and over time / lifetimes develop a benevolent attitude (acceptance of all ) that is non-denominational to a religious identity – ignore me 😃😃😃… thus requires me to mull over it

UB: Let me put this another way – गुण orientation is something you and me already possess. Your innate liking for books is ingrained in you. You cannot shake it off. Nor can you take on a new गुण that is not innate. So Ishta is a stop gap way that uses your innate orientation – it is like using a thorn to remove another one struck in your leg. With no Ishta, the work is more difficult. But maybe you will course out a unique PK way 😀😀 in the process.  Now I will ignore you for a while 😀😀😀 till you send today’s verses.

PK: 😂🙏🙏🙏

PA: Wonderful discussion!! 👏🏻👏🏻 Actually my whole thought process is currently boiling down to this simple but profound story from the Upanishad of the 2 birds:(again courtesy Osho) – The story : Two identical birds who are eternal companion sit on the same tree. One eats many fruits of various tastes. The other only witnesses without eating. I suppose that’s what it finally come to : the central fact of our doership and this belief that I am doing is the root cause of our misery. It’s easy to mistake ourselves to be the doer as we do not have this training to observe ourselves (inwards). Also since we are so involved with the doing and naturally all our sense process is outward bound we will automatically be in this mode of believing to be the Doer. As long we do not detach ourselves from, ourselves” we constantly will keep on creating the karmaphal and the going and coming will keep continuing.  The day we awake there will be only the bird who is observing. The other bird wil disappear l

HB: Lovely!  Agree that faith (shraddha) is paramount

PK: I agree with you PK – I am beginning to believe that introspection is key too; an unexamined life is not worth living assuming that one is living a life worth examining 😃

PA: You said it! Definitely introspection is the key: Being Aware of a problem is half the problem solved

PK: ये तु सर्वाणि कर्माणि मयि संन्यस्य मत्पराः। अनन्येनैव योगेन मां ध्यायन्तउपासते।।12.6।।

 तेषामहं समुद्धर्ता मृत्युसंसारसागरात्। भवामि नचिरात्पार्थमय्यावेशितचेतसाम्।।11.7।।

12.6 Whereas, O पार्थ! those who (ये तु) seek (Me), giving up (संन्यस्य) all action (सर्वाणि कर्माणि) unto Me (मयि), having Me as their ultimate (मत्पराः),  and meditating on Me (मां ध्यायन्त उपासते) with undivided discipline (अनन्येनैव योगेन), for them (तेषां) whose mind (चेतसाम्) is absorbed (आवेशित) in Me (मयि),  I (अहम्) become (अहम् भवामि) before long (नचिरात्) their liberator (समुद्धर्ता) from the ocean (सागरात्) that is संसार (filled with) death (मृत्यु).

PK: 12: 6-7 – The Lord says that the path to escape the relentless cycle of life and death ( samsara sagarat) is one of absolute and complete renunciation ( path of vairagya) which includes renouncing/giving up all actions, mediating with unwavering devotion on the Lord as the  Absolute, and merging both mind and intellect  with the Lord (mayy avesita chetasam).  This requires a temperament of   total surrender of one’s entire being (“heart and soul” in romantic lingo J) to the Lord, accompanied by an utter lack of desire to engage with the material world. IMO, this is a viable path for the rare, wise sanyasis whomeditate in the mountains away from the chaotic material, real-life world and its duality of responsibilities and attractions. I suspect strongly that folks like us, embedded in the chakravyooh of Ghar-grihasthi rarely interact with the rare yogis who attain their goal.

Our lives with their myriad responsibilities are not conducive to this level of vairgya/renunciation. In my opinion, if the GITA can be compared to a top-tier Ivy League University, this is a PhD level rigorous course- most folks do not have the required prerequisites to enroll 😃😃

PK: 12: 6-7 – The Lord says that  the path to escape the relentless cycle of life and death ( samsara sagarat) is one of absolute and complete renunciation ( path of vairagya) which includes renouncing/giving up all actions, mediating with unwavering devotion on the Lord as the  Absolute, and merging both mind and intellect  with the Lord (mayy avesita chetasam).  This requires a temperament of   total surrender of one’s entire being( “heart and soul” in romantic lingo 😃) to the Lord , accompanied by an utter lack of desire to engage with the material world. IMO, this is a viable path for  the rare, wise sanyasis whomeditate in the mountains away from the chaotic material, real-life world and its duality of responsibilities and attractions. I suspect strongly that folks like us, embedded in the chakravyooh of Ghar-grihasthi rarely interact with the rare  yogis who attain their goal.

Our lives with their myriad responsibilities are not conducive to this level of vairgya/renunciation. In my opinion, if the GITA can be compared to a top-tier Ivy League University, this is a PhD level rigorous course- most folks do not have the required prerequisites to enroll 😃😃

MK: For the Yogis who leave everything and meditate in the mountains doing कर्म without any expectations must be easier. There’s nobody to argue with or feel bad about something someone said or expect anything..which leads them to escape the cycle of life & death. If on the other hand, a person like us who is involved in ghar-ghrasthi is somehow able to reach a level where they do कर्म without any expectations, they might be able to attain nirvana even sooner….but it’s the most difficult thing to do…which makes one think to be alone in mountains or ashram 😄 just a thought..I don’t know whether it’s relevant also or not 😉

MK: Wonderful discussion above!! Thanks PK, Bhaskar & PK! IMO, the younger generation might be able to relate better with the formless (nirakaar & nirguna). They already introspect more than we ever did 🙏😀

PK: I hear ya sistah ! In general, it is always easier to get the job done when one is alone and there are no distractions : multiple folks coming with a variety of their needs and opinions 😃😃 However I suspect this shlokas is heading to something different – a yogi so immersed in the meditation and thoughts of Lord that no actions are necessary – renunciation of actions as nothing needs to be done cos he and the Lord are one and the same is at the pinnacle of the totem pole. On the other hand for us regular folks I think we are at the stage where action (attempting it to be nishakama karm)  is mostly superior to inaction( chapter2:47) .  If we do what is stated in the shlokas (inaction and erroneously think it to be exalted renunciation if actions) it is dumb and we doomed to failure. 😃😃 Reminds me of the joke using Rodin’s Thinker. “Sometimes I sits and thinks ; most times I just  sits”😃😃😃

UB: Wonderful to wake up and see such intense engagements 👍🏼. Imagine a scenario – A मालिक asking his driver to fetch veggies and a shirt for the driver. The driver goes to the veg market and haggles aggressively to get the best value for money. Then his eyes fall upon lovely mangoes which his मालिक adores but there were only two left. When asked when these will get replenished, the answer given was 3 days. He then cajoles the shopkeeper whether any early delivery is possible and also says he can pay more. The shopkeeper then makes a few calls and manages to source two dozen mangoes. Taking these happily, the driver goes to the shirt shop.  He then buys the most expensive shirt that he knows will befit the status of his मालिक. As he was returning home, he gets a call that the son of his मालिक was injured in the school. He rushes to the school breaking a few signals on the way, picks up the kid and gets him treated. All the above acts, the aggression, the cajoling, the indulgence, signal breaking,  etc indulged by the driver were not for his sake but that of the मालिक. These sets of action are acts of भक्ति. These acts do not belong to the driver but to the मालिक – in fact, despite doing all these things, we can say that the driver is not acting at all. If such भक्ति is shown in all our acts, we will achieve Him no doubt is the message here. Going away to mountains is not the way talked about here.

PK: Interesting … I guess you are illustrating renunciation/ giving up of actions unto ME?

UB: Yes. And if driver – मालिक relationship does not appeal,  we can replace this with mother and child,  student for his favorite teacher or a friend for another best friend, etc

PK: Interesting … 🙏🙏

VG: Interesting! Taking this a bit further.  What if the driver is doing all this because he wants to borrow money from Malik and may be ask for a raise too? He did all what you said above, but, with a selfish interest

UB: 😀 If he does these for selfish reasons, he will open himself to पुण्य & पाप and continue his cycle of birth and death. While he may successfully fool by the लौकिक मालिक with his mock भक्ति,  he cannot fool the भगवान् since भगवान् is within him as a साक्षी watching everything.

VB: Why does it all come back to do what is right and don’t worry about the rest… I many a times read through this and grapple if so much analysis is necessary. There is One. One is in all of us. Carry on your life knowing he is in all of us. Which will make u do right things as u r doing it to yourself too. Easier said than done. Unfortunately or fortunately I can live with this philosophy. I don’t care what the net result will be. Will I be reborn or attain oneness.

UB: 👍🏼👍🏼 Fair point. I guess different buttons appeal to different people. Earlier, birth and death again and again was viewed with disdain. Maybe another way to put this to not talk about rebirth or oneness and just say that such actions take us towards freedom. Since pure unadulterated freedom is what many seek, we can say that we are doing acts as an agent to become free, objective, unbiased,  etc like a true scientist.

PK: That’s a very reasonable and practical analysis – agree with you fully!  I think the reason for analysis is that I am trying in my head to figure out (many times with a glass of wine😃) if it is feasible , even as an academic exercise, to integrate science , morality and purpose of life 😃😃This nebulous desire to find meaning is probably some version of a midlife crisis but if it results in some self-improvement and self-knowledge why not? 😃😃😃Any Religion in its present form offers minimal reassurance or solace

PK: 👍👍

VB: Please don’t get me wrong. I am not against the process. It is just that I, personally, think that I can do without it. It is interesting to read about it

UB: 😀👍🏼

PK: No worries – I truly think we are more alike than different my friend 👍👍🙏

3/22/17, 19:25VB: 👍👍

PA: 👍👍 very well put. Actually the truth is relatively simple and straight forward as you said. I feel also that many us seem have this belief system knowledge is power hence we keep trying to read assimilate Analyse and finally at least in my case do not implement !!😊👍

PK: य्येव मन आधत्स्व मयि बुद्धिं निवेशय। निवसिष्यसि मय्येव अत ऊर्ध्वं नसंशयः।।12.8।।

12.8 Place the mind (मन आधत्स्व) on Me alone (मयि एव); in Me (मयि) place the बुद्धि (बुद्धिं निवेशय). There is no doubt (न संशयः) that hereafter (अत ऊर्ध्वं) you will abide (निवसिष्यसि) in Me alone (मयि एव).

अथ चित्तं समाधातुं न शक्नोषि मयि स्थिरम्। अभ्यासयोगेन ततोमामिच्छाप्तुं धनञ्जय।।12.9।।

12.9 If (अथ) you are unable (न शक्नोषि) to establish (समाधातुं) the mind (चित्तं) steadily (स्थिरम्) on Me (मयि), then, O धनञ्जय, seek (इच्छ) to attain Me (माम् आप्तुम्) through the योग of continuous practice (अभ्यास योगेन).

PK: 12:8-9 – The Lord is advising Arjuna to unrelentingly focus both mind (man) and intellect (buddhi) on HIM as the ultimate goal to be attained – thus one can abide in the Lord alone . IMO, this is much easier said than done and hence the Lord in his infinite wisdom offers a solution for those who find it hard to restrain their mind ( monkey mind/ chanchal man) i.e repeated practice ( abhyasa) whereby every time the mind matters , the devotee/ yogi gently brings it back to fix on the Lord. This reminded me of Dhyanyog (meditation) described in Chapter 6. I was also reminded of a saying by one of my favorite professors that I often repeat to my residents and my kids ” “Excellence (through practice) we can all aim for; Perfection is God’s business”

UB: 12:8 may be taken as a simple definition of भक्ति in which he also emphasixes that “without doubt”, one will attain the highest if we fix our मन/ बुद्धि on Him. But is it easy? When people say भक्ति is easy, it becomes evident that this is because most think that भक्ति is simply to sit in front of a deity or to love all while श्रीकृष्ण is defining भक्ति as something else altogether. Note that श्रीकृष्ण does not use of the word love or प्रेम anywhere though most of us tend to associate love with भक्ति. We love our kids because they have come out of us. We love our parents because they have done त्याग for us. We thus love anyone only because we owe some aspect of our life to such other person. So love is an outcome and once this comes about, we are able to fix our minds on kids, career,  etc because these mean something to us. Similarly, भक्ति can come only with ज्ञान and which is why focus of Ch 9 & 10 focussed on conveying the importance of the highest Truth of what भगवान् really means. Once this “information” seeps in and realization dawns, only then will भक्ति comes about and only then will love follow as an outcome. Without ज्ञान, no भक्ति is possible.

PK: You raise a very intriguing point of gyan coming first and leading to Bhakti .. I have always heard it the other way around… enough devotion/ Bhakti will result in gyan and I ave a hard time with that. That aside though – why do you call this bhakthi – this reminded me nots of meditation (dhyanyog) – are  bhakthi and Dhyan considered within the same spectrum? In my head I keep them separate …

UB: Sorry – can you restate your question?  BTW, this chapter is named as Bhakti Yoga and there is no verse that defines Bhakti and this verse is closest that may be seen as a definition

3/23/17, 06:23 PK: Why are you saying that this shloka is defining Bhakthi yoga  and not Dhyanyog ( meditation ) – do you consider them the same?

PK: Chapter 6:3-4 described Dhyanyog – I thought this was a reiteration

UB: Note that भगवान् Himself does not use the word भक्तियोग though people after Him named this Ch as भक्तियोग. भगवान् uses कर्मयोग,  ज्ञानयोग,  संयासयोग, ध्यानयोग,  etc but not भक्तियोग. योग thus may be taken as  युक्ति,  यत्न,  means,  orientation, etc. The end outcome through use of these means is भक्ति. And once one is established in भक्ति, the goal is achieved. I therefore see that भक्ति cannot be achieved till one does relentless practice, reading,  introspection, etc and whichever योग one pursues,  भक्ति slowly expands till one no longer requires any means to achieve भक्ति and one becomes a natural भक्त

PK: Interesting … you are saying bhakthi is the pinnacle while I was erroneously thinking that it is the first step ..lots to mull over 😃😃😃…over wine ( no offense )

UB: 😀😀👍🏼

UB: At the lowest level is भक्ति of the तमोगुण kind. This person chants the name of कृष्ण from time to time, lights up a दिया daily at home, goes to temples off and on. There is no thinking about the depth of भगवान्, no real living of life knowing all comprehensive aspect of भगवान् and possibly does the above actions more out of fear or merely repeating what his or her parents followed all their life. Then we have भक्ति of the रजोगुण kind. This person does intense reading if intellectual oriented or intense activity in the form of meditation classes, doing intense Puja, doing Homa/ Abhishekha at temples,  wearing visible religious symbols as a matter of pride, etc. This kind of भक्त tends to be argumentative, selectively reads the lives of Saints to emulate acts that resemble their sensibilities and looks down upon other orientations or makes fun of them. But they do think about भगवान् deeply in their lives. Most of us are probably at this stage. Then we have भक्ति of the सत्वगुण kind. They are composed, calm, genuinely see the operation of भगवान् in all beings. They find joy reading also and they also indulge in जप, नित्यपूज,  etc and do not prefer one over the other. They find the same level of satisfaction in doing any act since they see भगवान् operating at all places. They also argue when necessary or keep quiet when necessary. They are actually convinced but do नित्यसाधना since they do not want to fall down from their zone of joy.  This can be as aspiration for all of us. Last, we have a भक्त beyond  गुण who is of the परमहंस or तुकाराम kind. They are deeply immersed आत्मा who are beyond all – they are nothing else but भगवान् in human forms.

PK: These folks are described in 12:6-7, right? Those who have achieved “renunciation of actions” Some but not all do include the sages in the mountains? Some (very few) I am presuming do live amongst us… I think priests are supposed to be at this stage? Yet to see/talk to  a person like this that I am convinced is not faking😃😃 I am curious – who named these chapters? Since they are not in original text

UB: Every commentator has named each Ch with different titles but the ones popularly used are the names given by Adi Shankara. Who are the priests you are referring to?  The Purohitas in our temples? These will be no different from us really.

PK: I guess I used to have higher expectations 😃..: some esp here  belong to the first group – just going through motions 😃Definitely seen and met folks you describe in the second group – some can be fairly militant 😃😃 I admire a few folks who I think belong to the third group – their calm temperament with their extensive knowledge is what I admire – debates are on what they have read and experienced and not a mere ” who are you to question 5000 years of thinking of the way things are done”? At that point I am done talking 😃😃😃

PK: The band U2 (and some others) said it very well. Their song from the album Joshua Tree is one of my all-time favorites. ” But I still haven’t found what I am looking for…… I believe when the kingdom comes then all the colors will bleed into one”

UB: To your point that you could not spot enlightened persons among पुरोहित वर्ग, let me rephrase this by putting a question as – where can one find people who are ब्राह्मण or belong to ब्राह्मण वर्ण? To this, let me position myself first. I belong to a ब्राह्मण कुल who is part of a वैश्य जाति and my conduct is that of a शूद्र. As we discussed earlier, a ब्राह्मण is one where सत्वगुण is primary and रजस् is secondary, a क्षत्रिय is one where रजस् is primary and सत्वगुण is secondary, a वैश्य is one where रजस् is primary and तमस् is secondary and a शूद्र is one where तमस् is primary and तमस् is रजस्. I thus belong a शूद्र वर्ण since in my free time, I indulge in gross activities in a passive manner like watching movies and cricket or going for holidays. An enlightened person can be from a ब्राह्मण कुल like रमण, a क्षत्रिय कुल like विवेकानन्द, a वैश्य कुल like गांधी or शूद्र कुल like निसर्गदत्त महाराज. You said that you could not find such people among पुरोहित वर्ग but then you are searching at the wrong place. A typical पुरोहित is trained in Agama scriptures which is meant to last for 15 years where they are trained for upkeep of temples and processes for conducting temple rituals apart from Indian astrology, Vastu, etc. Most end up not spending 15 years but spend only 5 years focussing either on Shiva, Vishnu, etc only and get into पुरोहित jobs. Thus, though they may be from ब्राह्मण कुल (this is changing now) engaged in ब्राह्मण कर्म, their वर्ण need not be ब्राह्मण since their purpose of getting into this role is either hereditary or for earning a living.

UB: If you however choose to go to places like Chinmaya Ashram, you come across people who may be from any कुल who form part of संयासी जाति (since a संयासी is beyond the pale of वर्ण classification) but you may find certain ones who may be from ब्राह्मण वर्ण or they may be गुणातीतः too. Or we may find ब्राह्मण around us in the living in the form of cooks, housemaid, bus conductors, garbage collectors, etc. But to spot them, we must also develop दिव्य चक्षु since if I myself am not qualified to spot one, how can I expect myself to make a sensible judgement about another? So it all comes back to me – this search is not about the other as much as it is about me. 😊

VA: Very well explained OD..thx fr taking the time

3/24/17, 06:13 UB: 🙏🏼

PK: You are correct – that the search is always more about ourselves – however one way of doing that is also to observe folks to finds those with characteristics one admires and wishes to learn from .., for example among Caucasian here I am very impressed with their volunteer spirit … they do dimming for the community and schools that is very admirable … I hope yo emulate but it is easy to make excuses like lack of time – sigh! I also agree with PK’s words too that when the student is ready the right teacher appears 😃. I too take too much pleasure in the material aspects of life… long way to go but life is good!

UB: 👍🏼👍🏼

VN: Perfectly said UB…The search is about me 🙏🏻

PK: 12.10. If (अथ) you are (असि) incapable (असमर्थ:) of even this [steady] practice (अभ्यासे अपि), be (भव) one for whom actions (कर्म) dedicated to (attain) Me (मत्) is the chief aim (परम:). Even by performing (कुर्वन् अपि) actions (कर्माणि) for Me (मद् अर्थम्), You shall attain (अवाप्स्यसि) success (सिद्धिम्).

अथैतदप्यशक्तोऽसि कर्तुं मद्योगमाश्रितः। सर्वकर्मफलत्यागं ततः कुरुयतात्मवान्।।12.11।।

12.11 If (अथ), being committed (आश्रितः) to My Yoga ( मद्योगम्) , you (असि) are unable (अशक्त:)  to do (कर्तुम्) even this (एतद् अपि), in that case (तत:), being one whose mind is disciplined (यत् आत्मवान्), please (कुरू) give up (the false notion of being the author of) the results of (फल#त्यागं) all actions (सर्वकर्म).

PK: 12:10-11 – This (12:10) shloka focusses on Karma Yoga for those folks who temperamentally are unsuited for “Dhyanyoga” i.e  are unable to practice restraining their mind to focus on the Lord. For such folks, who may tend to me more “action-oriented” (vs “contemplative oriented”), the karmayoga path is to perform all actions such that everything we do is meant for the Lord such that the most important aspect/aim becomes to offer as ahuti all actions/activities to the Lord. However (12;11), if circumstances are such  that this is not possible/challenging , then another avenue in Karmayoga is to continue to perform actions/duties but  give up the notion of “ownership” to the rewards/ results of one’s activities.  This to me is another reiteration of the famous shloka (2:47) and the bedrock of karmayoga. We have a right to perform our duty but not to the rewards/results of our actions which may be positive or negative (success or failure). It is critical to also remember that the Lord is very clear about the fact that inaction or shirking from one’s responsibilities is not an option.  I am not sure who said this but this seems to encapsulate shlokas 1-11 and to some extent everything we have read/learnt to date. “Real knowledge like everything else of value cannot be obtained easily. It must be worked for (Karmayoga), studied for (Gyan yoga), thought for (Dhyan yoga) and more than all must be prayed for (Bhakthi yoga). (The parenthesis are mine and seemed to fit perfectly).

PK: UB; I am internalizing your trying to educate us on the value of bhakthi yoga 🙏🙏🙏

UB: Perfect commentary 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼. I love this style of Krishna – “Do this. And if you cannot do this, try option 2. And if option 2 is difficult, try option 3.”

PK: 🙏🙏

UB: Just heard one Swamiji state that anyone doing hard work with dedication, sincerity and commitment is doing कर्म. However, if we are able to join भक्ति attitude to कर्म, only then the  कर्म turns into कर्मयोग

PK: This I am not sure 😒..,at present to me karm yog or gyan you or dhyan you seem stand alone paths if done with right attitude and sincerity with Bhakti you as icing on cake but what do I know ? I am nowhere near doing constantly with right attitude so at present will work on that and will deal with bhakthi when it happens 😃😃.., this point is where I have most affinity with VB 😃😃… do what you can – why agonize?

UB: 😀😀 Understand

PA: Wow so many messages! This group has caught fire 🔥

PA: 👍👏🏻👏🏻 PK your commentary is absolutely amazing especially because you come up with references from previous chapters 👏🏻👏🏻👍 Actually I do not think there should be a problem enjoying material pleasures in fact the other way around why should it be a problem?  I think this is coming from a wrong belief system that money is evil.  Actually it’s not it’s only the wrong use of it that is the problem. The whole nature is abundant and flowing and flowering so why do we as humans live deprived? The key problem is being attached to a particular situation (status, position wealth, skills, jobs, etc etc )

PK: Agree with you fully 🙏🙏

HB: 😊 I too have no problems enjoying good things in life. In fact the problem would be, if I can’t . Cheers

PA: Well HB I suppose at least you are honest with your self instead of somebody who desires inside to enjoy those pleasures but has outer facade that says he is religious and he would not enjoy it. I think such a person had been rejected already by Krishna in one of the chapter

VB: Group is becoming material matters

HB: 😜😂it matters

PA: I might be completely wrong here but I also feel that some of the so called learned priest may have problem getting to enlightened stage as their learning will stand in the way as ego. Whatever we try and do it’s just not possible to know the ever-new infinite.  In fact none of the enlightened masters seem to have followed any set path. Actually we have made set and rigorous paths after they left and gave them different names and practices. This is a very very good summarization and you have made here 👏🏻👏🏻👍 That’s already the key to give up the false notion of being doer hence automatically we have no ownership on the results.

HB: 😊🙏🏼

PK: I am convincing myself that it does not have to be an “either / or ” choice rather an “and”; the latter is true for most of us here 😃😃😃.., but we are in our way home

HB: I am all in for ‘And’ and ‘And’ and ‘And’ ,,,,,,,

PK: “Mystical and Material Matters” ..we are all set 😂😂

HB: 😀

PK: Danke. Danke (taking a deep bow ) A compliment from this group is always cherished 🙏🙏

3/26/17, 02:53 PK: श्रेयो हि ज्ञानमभ्यासाज्ज्ञानाद्ध्यानं विशिष्यते। ध्यानात्कर्मफलत्यागस्त्यागाच्छान्तिरनन्तरम् ।।12.12।।

12.12 Understanding (with practice) (ज्ञानम्) is surely superior (श्रेयो हि) to practice (अ भ्यासात्); Contemplation (with understanding) (ध्यानम्) surpasses (विशिष्यते) Understanding (ज्ञानात्). The renunciation of the results of works (कर्मफलत्याग:) (excels) Contemplation (ध्यानात्). From renunciation (त्यागात्), Peace (शान्ति:) follows immediately (अनन्तरम्).

PK: 12:12 – This is a complex verse; Gyan yog (cultivation of knowledge of the self) is better than the imperfect/ difficult practice (abhyasa) (without knowledge) of restraining the mind to focus on the Lord. Dhyanyog (contemplative meditation on the Lord) is better than imperfect Knowledge of the Self ; Karmyog with renunciation of actions ( attributing all actions to the Lord) and/or giving up “ownership” to results/rewards of actions  is better than imperfect meditation on the Self. Karmyog performed in the spirit of renunciation ( nishkama karm) results  in peace of mind.  If I understand this right, achieving peace of mind thru Karmyoga , one one can raise / realize the self through knowledge of self (Gyanyoga) and thru mediatation (Dhyanyog) which is the goal i. e realization of Brahman[stitha/prajna} (A mind not at peace and/or attached to desires is an  impediment to self-realization).  Thus nishkama Karmayoga  by providing equanimity/peace of mind paves the path for our mind to engage in mediation on the Self  ( Dhyanyoga) and gain knowledge of Self (Gyanyoga). Maybe, for folks like me for whom Bhakthi at present is an elusive concept, its significance will become clear later.  The importance of the mind (attaining peace / equanimity of mind) was emphasized in the famous  6:5 shloka  “Uddhared atmanatmanam, Naatmaanam avasadayet, Aatmaiva hy Atmano bandhur Atmaiva ripur atmanah”. Let a man raise himself by his own efforts. Let him not degrade himself. Because a person’s best friend or worst enemy is none other than his own self.

UB: Yes this is a complex verse – let me read how some commentaries comment on this and revert later in the day. Another verse 2:66 is close though not exactly the same.

UB: नास्ति बुद्धिरयुक्तस्य न चायुक्तस्यभावना । न चाभावयतः शान्तिरशान्तस्य कुतःसुखम् ॥२.६६॥

For the one who is not tranquil (अयुक्तस्य) there is (अस्ति) no (न) knowledge (बुद्धिः). For the one who is not tranquil (अयुक्तस्य), there is no (न च) contemplation (भावना). And (च) for the one who is not contemplative (अभावयतः), there is no (न) peace (शान्तिः). For the one who has no peace (अशान्तस्य) how can there be (कुतः) happiness (सुखम्)?

PK: Sounds good🙏🙏🙏 I wondered if 6:3-4 were connected to this; at that time i found those verses complex as well 😃😃😃

UB: अभिनवगुप्त gives His comments as below:

We say that ज्ञान of Oneness or absorption into the Divine is better than अभ्यास because ज्ञान comes as a result of अभ्यास. If अभ्यास does not result in ज्ञान, there is no use of pursuing such अभ्यास. However, ध्यान viz the identity with भगवान् is better than ज्ञान because only through ध्यान does one attains भगवान् which excels all other objects of ज्ञान. When ध्यान is completed, i.e. when identity with भगवान् is realized, only then is it possible to renounce the results of action since one realizes that one is really an instrument of भगवान्. Otherwise how can one surrender the fruits of action to भगवान् when the nature of भगवान् remains hidden from him?  And only when one is able to renounce the fruits of action, one is able to achieve the state of शांति. Thus start with limited practice which should take us to ज्ञान of Oneness of भगवान् which should take us to ध्यान which should take us to a state where we realize that we are not the doer. Once one reaches this state, one achieves शांति.

UB: This approach is interesting since it does not say one branch is better than the other but actually suggests that one branch must lead to the another or else we are struck at previous level. So start with क्रिया like नित्यपूज, जप, chanting, etc is simple practices. These pursued over a period of time must necessarily take us to a state where we question the reasons behind these and as we investigate further, we can connect with their purpose and thus get ज्ञान of Oneness. This ज्ञान of Oneness excites us further and we intensify our efforts to focus on the truth of Oneness and these deeper efforts are nothing else but ध्यान. And once we achieve सिद्धि in ध्यान, we really start experiencing Oneness everywhere in the form described in Ch 10. At this stage, we fully lose the idea of doership as ego breaks away from us. Once ego goes away, we are at peace in the सत्-चित्-आनन्द state. People who are thus at various preliminary states are thus given a direction to tell them what their efforts must eventually lead to.

PK: I am (fully cognizant of my limited knowledge ) somehow not convinced by this explanation / the shloka clearly states that renunciation if actions is superior to dhyanam  ; unlikevthus explanation which fudged around that and dud when dhyan is completed then renunciation occurs . So, not buying this dude’s explanation yet .., Again, the jump to Nityapuja etc seems to be an extrapolation beyond the shloka … the previous shlokas describe abhyas as practice of restraining mind when it deviated from the Lord.. I have seen people doing pujas and it’s all mere going through motions – this even  includes pujaris – this simplistic notion of keep doing Pujas/ chants  and enlightenment will strike does not make realky sense to me! And I recognize fully this may be an issue with me but for each of us I think it’s critical to be honest about journey and what we believe in . With all due respect, this guru ‘a explanation holds no appeal whatsoever 🙏🙏🙏… he is trying to mold the shloka to bhakthi the way he thinks it is- may work for him and some folks but unfortunately not for me

UB: Hahaha – I am aware of your love for नित्यपूज. 😀

PK: 😂🙏

UB: But we must be careful here. The whole course starts with अभ्यास – what does this mean?  It is means spiritual practices which includes नित्यपूज. It includes जप and भगवान् had said in Ch 10 that among all practices, He is जप. Or it could mean दान. Or it could mean social service like offering food to needy, etc. You could choose any of them. The point being made is that these disparate practices must lead to ज्ञान. So the others who are struck in नित्यपूज without mind leading to ज्ञान are pursuing these practices wastefully. Lastly, we must judge नित्यपूज not based on how others do this but remain stunted but we can comment with authority only if we do this ourselves and found it wasted. Is it not?  Having said that, if नित्यपूज does not appeal,  others like जप, दान, etc are available. But if we do none of these basic level practices too, then we may be merely intellectualizing but not making efforts which will again not help.

HB: Are u sure about the last sentence about not doing any basic level practices at all?

PK: The shloka clearly says that gyan is superior to abhyas? Why can some folks who are temparementally so inclined jump to study: gain gyan  ? These are the folks who enjoy learning studying religion, philosophy etc – I see no reason why one has to necessarily do puja, Jap etc … the shloka says precisely that – I am not saying this works for everyone but I think trying to make bhakthi fit here seems like trying to fit a round peg in a square hole . For some folks study / knowledge may not appeal/ they try contemplation/ meditation – that is not easy either and if done improperly one may get one nowhere. However actions performed without attachment to results/ rewards is what I see some folks do at least in some aspects of life (volunteer , fire men etc) – there may be no bhakthi always in the picture but the shloka says this gives peace of mind – at least that is my take at present. Will keep listening to you though 🙏

HB: Agree

UB: I know where you are coming from. I felt the same initially. But then I read the commentary of both Abhinavagupta and Shankaracharya. Both alluded the view given above and hence I shared this since their view is equally important to consider before I exercise my own choice. And as far कर्मफलत्याग, let me expand this idea. Besides, a translation may be understood in a certain way but how language is used to convey ideas at a certain era is something only experts can convey since I am not a language expert. So on certain matters, I have no choice but to defer to experts – hence reading of commentaries.

UB: There is कर्मफल त्याग in every action I do. So if I do hard work, it may give me good bank balance as well as a full stomach as a फल. Now if I do दान, I am doing त्याग of the फल obtained from my कर्म. If I work hard in the week, I am entitled to have a good sleep over the weekend as a फल of my कर्म. But if I do त्याग of this कर्मफल by getting up early at ब्रह्म मुहूर्त to do जप, I am doing again a कर्मफलत्याग to attain nearness to भगवान्. Looking at it this way, at the अभ्यास state, there is कर्मफलत्याग of the sensual kind. Once we graduate into ज्ञान mode, we indulge in कर्मफलत्याग of the mental kind since we keep away mind from deriving joys of other mental kind like intellectual pursuits and instead spend time in ज्ञान of भगवान् via text like the Upanishads or other scriptures. Do note that reading is also a type of कर्म only. Then we get higher into ध्यान which can only happen with intellectual conviction where long hours of meditation practices and other acts are done and this is कर्मफलत्याग of the बुद्धि type. At the highest level, there is no कर्म since the idea of doership goes away. All कर्म is done by भगवान् only when one realizes that one’s own मन & बुद्धि also belong to भगवान् and if there is no कर्म, the idea of  कर्मफलत्याग is the highest since one is in this mode at all times. And this approach of understanding to me is appealing enough to accept. But we can agree to disagree 👍🏼🙏🏼

PK: I have to mull over it- seems way more tyaag than my preference 😃😃… I suspect this process should feel joyful and if it feels like deprivation then it’s not entirely right st this moment; the puja also seems forced in … but like you say we can agree to disagree for the present for what do I know? 🙏we are all at different stages in this process but we are all on our way home. Good night my friend and thanks for a really thoughtful discussion 🙏🙏🙏

UB: Actually, in every activity, implicitly present in pursuit of the act is the idea of “giving up”. So if I am watching TV or a movie, I am “giving up” on reading. If I am playing cricket, I am “giving up” on eating. If I am eating, I am “giving up” the activity of taking to friends. And if I am taking to friends while at work, I am “giving up” my work focus. But in these acts of “giving up”, त्याग is not perceived since our mind has wilfully chosen to do certain acts at a certain time. And logically, we always give up what is perceived as adding lesser value to us at a certain point of time than what we have chosen to pursue. And hence, the idea of “giving up” more than what we are comfortable at does not arise in such instances. Similarly, when one is convinced that attaining भगवान् is the one and only goal worth pursuing, we will willingly do all acts in that direction and there is no perception of “giving up” at all. These issues are however debates for all of us since the idea of attaining भगवान् as the only goal has not fully seeped into our persona. We are still trying to figure out whether this narrative is true or a load of bull. 😊

PA: Waoo what a discussion!! Although a bit out of sync but wanted to post what yogananda has said for the verse 11: If a devotee owing to materialistic tendencies and mental perversities is unable to perform material and meditative actions on the thought of God to please Him he should cling to the Lord with faith seeking refuge in His unconditional love and perform all actions without concentrating on the fruits. Such relinquishment means that renouncing preconceived expectations and trusting in the lords compassion and grace to so order the outcome of ones Endeavour that they will conduce to the devotees ultimate highest good. Just as a person who uses the right method to squeeze olives will get the hidden oil a devotee by the pressure of loyal devotion and the unselfish performance of good actions, material and meditative will find Him

UB: And what about 12:12?

PA: Wisdom (born from yoga practice) is superior to (mechanical) yoga practice ; meditation is more desirable than the possessions  of (theoretical ) wisdom; the relinquishment of the fruits of actions is better than (the initial states) of meditation. Renunciation of the fruits of actions is followed immediately by peace. The deeper meaning of this verse cites the subtle differentiation of the states experienced by the yogi as he attains realization of god by any of the modes of worship defined in previous verses. Greater than the initial experience of the state of meditative oneness with God is constant establishment in that state which leads to freedom from bondage to karmic fruit of action

UB: 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼 Thanks. Here,  it is interesting to note that freedom from bondage to कर्मफल comes at the very end.

PA: Yes actually that’s the ultimate goal

UB: From today till the end, the verses describe a भक्त. Instead of getting into a definition of भक्ति,  the verses describe how a  भक्त behaves – any remnant idea that भक्ति is easy gets evaporated as an outcome 😀

PA: After the meditative unity with spirit is permanently established the devotee attains the superior state of oneness with God plus completes escape from the binding of material vibrations. Lastly the devotee realizes the peace of God which passeth all understanding

UB: 👍🏼👍🏼

VB: Absolutely not convinced that I should be a serial progression. Understanding oneness, imho, can be like an epiphany too or a studied wisdom or because you believe someone who you respect. Understanding oneness should not necessarily be backed by abhyaas or dhyaan or gyaan. I said this earlier too. I have seen people be almost in final stages without ever going thru all stages. They did nityapuj and then jumped the queue. Again, whatever works. My grandfather, his sister, my mom’s mom, my mom, in my mind are such examples. I so look forward to a discussion on this when we meet. Whataspp is so frustratingly restrictive

PA: Waoo 🙏🏻🙏🏻👍👍. Well if you have family members who attained the higher stages without doing the serial progression then please also share your experience and what you learnt from them 🙏🙏

VB: Arey, I don’t have your writing skills. And I don’t know if I learnt anything from them. All I can remember is  wish good for all, never ever a bad word about anyone, work tirelessly for happiness of others and most importantly be happy in all situations, mantra was always, तो बघुन घेईल meaning He will take care

HB: 👌🙏🏼 perfect

VB: Bhaskar, maazrat, maafi…Next mango shake on me

PA: Wonderfully said 👏🏻👏🏻that encompasses everything. लोका समस्थे  सूखिनो भावन्तु. May all sentient beings find peace and happiness. PK: Reminded me of this VB

Shanthi tulyam tapo nasti

Toshann param sukham

Nasti Trishna apro vyadhirna

Cha dharmo dayaparah

There is no purifying process higher than attaining peace of mind and no bliss equal yo being satisfied with one’s lot. There is no disease bigger than excessive desire or craving for anything and no tenet greater than kindness towards all living beings

PA: 👍👏🏻👏🏻

UB: Why माफी Sir – if they had done नित्यपूज, the debate is over, right?  😀 Jokes apart, there is no mention of progressive cultivation or progress. Let us take someone wanting to participatein 42 Km marathon. How will one convey the challenges to such a person?  We will first say – it is important to build calf muscles and stamina. This is at a body level. Then we will tell him – perseverance is key and let your mind not become weak and change its goals to do a lesser distance race. Lastly, and this is a bigger problem, after a few days, our Buddhi may give ideas – why do Marathon?  Whom am I trying to prove?  Fight such ideas that are more intellectual. However, for some people, these may happen simultaneously too.  But the idea being conveyed is that all of us suffer from challenges created by these three – physical, mental and intellectual viz कायिक, मानसिक & बौद्धिक.  Conquer these three and you are free to do anything.

UB: To continue, if we believe we are strong mentally and get on with Marathon, even though we are intellectually convinced, our body may not cooperate. So body may pull down our intellectual conviction. And even if our body is strong, we know very well that physical strength is not enough for success unless it is backed by mental resolve and intellectual conviction – that is the idea here.

VB: Agree. Some initial abhyaas will always help. As u said, serial progression not always necessary. Analogies are always very convincing. For eg., a person with a poetic bent of mind will write or say poems, like bahinabai, without any formal training. It is inbuilt. So in marathons u require abhyaas and gyan to practice and diet/perfect the running technique etc. But a poet will be intuitive.

UB: Can one just read about Marathon and run 42 Km?  We are people with body, DOING is our nature and we cannot bypass it – for most people. If one is gifted, one can possibly bypass it but not all.

UB: In the बृहद् अरण्यक उपनिषद्, there is a wonderful episode on सत्यकाम जाबाल. His Guru realizes that this child was gifted and deserving. So he sends him on an errand by giving him a few cows and telling him that he should return to the Ashram once the number of cows touches 5000. So our man goes to the jungles, traverses the fields, takes care of cows,  etc. Now since he would have had a lot of time, HE NOTICED NATURE. He saw the Sun, the moon, the green fields,  the trees, all forms of life from ant,  etc. And he was stunned by the Unity amidst all this diversity. And he was lost in this beauty of Unity. 12 years passed. A colleague told him that the number of cows has exceeded 5000 and he then returns to the Ashram. The Guru asks him to describe what he experienced in these 12 years. As Satyakama explained, Guru realized that his disciple had already achieved the highest state of Unity. And he needed no training. However, SINCE THE DISCIPLE WILL LIVE IN THE WORLD OF PEOPLE, he was taught the scriptures about idea of Unity (which the disciple already knew) and other rituals so that he can live among people. Idea is – theory or intellectual reading is necessary only for an unprepared mind. For prepared mind, it is all about seeing which may happen naturally to some gifted people. But equally, one cannot just jump to reading without DOING something and this doing is what is suggested as नित्यपूज, दान, service to others, etc.

UB: A logical question will therefore arise – how did a poetic bent of mind get inbuilt into a person? Logically speaking, nothing will come to any person unless he or she makes an effort. So how did one develop poetic ability or singing ability or intellectual grasping ability? The only logical answer is – “They would have worked for it in the past”. As a logical person, I cannot accept words like accident, chance,  etc as these words are not rational. Therefore, if a born starts singing from the age of 2, it means he would have worked on this in his previous life. There is no other explanation (including genes). The Indian texts are not bound by a single life prism and hence we have the flexibility to associate our individual orientations to previous life 😀. So choose your irrationality – previous life idea or accidental artistic ability being inbuilt in people 😀

VB: I believe in the framework of multiple lives and hence I would say something of last life would help now. Having said that, it is still true that the person will not do abhyaas this life. Can genes mutate to bring in a spark of talent, I am in no position to comment.

UB: 👍🏼. At lower stages, अभ्यास is a ritual,  a chore and a demand. At higher levels, there is no अभ्यास but one is in a नित्यपूज mode as a habit and is done all throughout the day as an expression of joy – it is no longer an external mandate. Now – focus on office or else I will be sacked 😀

VB: Do your dharma…and that is educating us. Office is a distraction. I am at home today and planning to take leave once my son comes back from his last board exam.

UB: 👌🏼👌🏼👏🏼 More such ideas will be conveyed by PK in rest of the verses of Ch 12. Looking forward to them.

PA: My question is UB is it not enough to at least try to live our life as VB grandfather have lived? The path of spirituality can be sometimes as simple as that. Although having said ‘simple” is an understatement because I think living by these ideals practically is quite difficult. However I am sure a person who lives such a life does not need to read and understand any of the scriptures as he himself is a living scripture

UB: Yes we can. In fact, a list of 20 attributes that need cultivation come up in Ch 13. These are collectively referred to as ज्ञान and whosoever lives these attributes is a ज्ञानी.

PK: 🙏🙏👍👍 We have not discovered the gene for genius 😃😃.., hypothetically we do favour genetic mutation as an explanation for unexpected occurrences – the trick is trying up localize. As one who likes to categorize things (I find it easier to then ask questions ) – some people find this terribly annoying 😃😃.., I think there are the intuitive/ go with the flow folks ( poets etc) and the process oriented folks .,, I would call thus a mixture of  it innate inclinations and environment ( mix of nature and nurture / Thad trick again is no one knows clearly his much each contributes) – studies. Am be done only in identical twins with hypothesis that genetic material is as identical as possible so if you give different environments and differences arise, the working hypothesis is nurture – I find this fascinating. I am a process oriented person – this group has folks who follow what the experts say and folks like me with more than a touch of rebellion/ pushing the envelope so to speak – this tendency (mixture of nature and nurture but I think more nature ) like all others is positive sometimes and detrimental In others 😃😃😃😃. And this is not an all or none phenomenon (intuitive vs process) – most of us do both ( gut instinct for example) – to me it’s just a way of thinking of which mode do you operate more frequently in? it’s an academic exercise that gives one to figure at least sometimes why we make the choices/ decisions we did/ do. I do agree with VB that this is not by any means a sequential journey/ process. There are many ways to the top of the mountain and that mixed with a two step forward one step back due to one’s innate strengths and weakness makes this fun! This journey to me, by its very nature and what it aims to accomplish, is intensely personal – I will listen to the experts but on this journey if I do not buy it, it means very little if the world convinces me that something works. It is however both encouraging and interesting to learn what works for different folks and in that process find likeminded folks (” finding your tribe”)

PK: To clarify I mean this group of process oriented folks not “this mystic matters group ” 🙏🙏

UB: Ch 12 generating a lot of discussions 👍🏼👍🏼 MK must be wondering where did she land into 😀. PK – the real discussion must not be about whether sequential approach works or not. The real debate is how we will tackle our physical weaknesses (pertaining to senses), mental and intellectual obstacles that obstruct the path towards freedom. It is seemingly sequential since physical obstacles like weakness for excessive food, etc are more visible obstacles while the mental and intellectual ones are more subtle. So the process is shown to expand as physical first followed by physical+mental followed by physical+mental+intellectual. What is the use of being intellectually aware of highest truths of Truth but remain a letcher.

PK: Satyavachan. We are arguing the same point – bit from opposite ends. I would say that for a man who was raised to believe that being a leached is the norm, it is the intellectual or knowledge that it is not truth is critical initially – and he needs up believe it and only then can he change actions (physical). I would argue that for many folks it is the knowing that brings about both physical and mental change. For some folks, it is the action that is their predominant focus but for others it is the intellect that is the lure. So physical+ mental+ intellect in that order is not true for all. For many of us intellect + try physical + mental etc etc. Changing actions is one way, I would argue that changing thoughts is equally important otherwise one just goes thru motions

UB: 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

HB: UB what is brahma muhurt?

UB: Roughly 4am – an hour or two before Sunrise

HB: Oh! Ok

UB: Best time for meditation, जप,  संध्यावन्दन्,  etc

HB: Any special significance

UB: Best time for meditation, जप,  संध्यावन्दन्,  etc as per our texts

UB: Even a day is divided into गुण and ब्रह्ममुहूर्त is the सत्व part of the day

HB: Ok. Thanks

PA: I am sure MK has been enjoying this discussion. 😊

VB: Very well put

PK: 12.13 He who is not hateful (अद्वेष्टा) towards any creature (सर्वभूतानां), who is friendly (मैत्रः) and compassionate (करुण एव च), who has no idea of ‘mine’ (निर्मम:) and the idea that “I” (am only this body-mind) (निरहङ्कारः), who is सम under दुःख and सुखः (सम दुःख सुखः), who is accommodative (क्षमी) ;

सन्तुष्ट: सततं योगी यतात्मा दृढनिश्चयः। मय्यर्पितमनोबुद्धिर्यो मद्भक्तःस मे प्रियः।।12.14।।

12.14 He who is ever content (सन्तुष्ट: सततं), who is a योगी, who has disciplined (यतात्मा), who has firm conviction (दृढनिश्चयः), with mind and बुद्धि resolved in Me (मयि अर्पित मनो बुद्धि:) – who is (य:) devoted to Me (मद्भक्तः), that one (स:) is dear to Me (मे प्रिय:).

PA: 12:13-14 – These shlokas describe the ideal bhakt- not much to add here and not controversial either 😃😃 The emphasis seems on equanimity/ in-temperament , someone who does not seem rove disturbed by the vagaries of life . Seems much harder than it looks but a worthwhile goal to start may be to reduce volatility in emotions- I do lose my temper not infrequently😃😃.  There is a part of me that wonders if a such a equanimous disposition seems devoid of passion or strong opinions but I am assuming the passion is directed towards Union with the Lord – long way to go indeed

MK: Thanks UB!! I am enjoying reading the discussions very much!! For a change, am standing on the sidewalk and learning to be a spectator ;))) which rather seems a new trait in me…one that I have been trying to cultivate for a long time. Also I have not read Geeta or any other scripture so probably am not the right person to talk about what the Shloks mean. The discussion on abhyaas can go on for a long time. I am a strong supporter of meditation and भक्ति प्रेम and believe that even ईश्वर भी सिर्फ़ सच्चे प्रेम का भूखा है as my Guruji used to say…we can also call it unconditional love but अभ्यास has very strong advantages of its own. What you explained in abhyaas that we need to prioritize our time and choose to spend that particular time lighting diya or aarti ( is that नित्यपूज) instead of doing something else was very interesting. In my experience, if we do not push ourselves to be disciplined and do regular अभ्यास, which can start from nityapooj and then lead to meditation; we’ll always find other things to do. Also, it’s nice to do abhyaas, discuss intellectually etc. but in the end, we have to reach a state of pure meditation..It’s difficult to discuss this topic on whatsapp though ;)) Wish one day I will be able to get up at 4 to meditate…my aim after the kids leave the nest..😉🙏

UB: Wonderful thoughts 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 Yes PK – these verses are easy to appreciate without much commentary. However, keeping these in mind, if one reads the stories in Srimad Bhagavatam or other Purana’s, I have seen that these words will sink-in more effectively. Also, this is a good way of identifying a Guru or a Bhakta. If a person displays these traits consistently all the time or most of the time, you know you have found someone special. Cherish friendship with such a person

UB: MK – the idea is essentially to move from “doing meditation” to “being meditative all the time” – from doing योग to being a नित्ययोगी. For this however, one must note that just like sleep is prominent in newly born kids, sleep is prominent after hard day’s work, sleep is prominent post retirement (when kids grow up and move on). No learning happens when तमोगुण or sleep is prominent. I see my parents also resorting to sleep most of the time. Much worse, our ingrained habits practiced all our life get exaggerated post retirement meaning that if one is angry all our life, such anger intensifies, if one is an EATO most of the life, one remains an EATO post retirement and frustration increases if one is unable to eat (owing to illnesses). Similarly, if we inculcate some good habits while younger, even such habitual patterns get exaggerated post retirement. So doing acts like जप, service to others, etc while younger is key since nothing new can start when one is older. If we however do not begin action NOW, we will grow up to be a grumpy old man or woman whom all would be happy to avoid contact 😀. So START NOW is the message I learnt from someone I know.

MK: 🙏👏👏👏👍👍agree with you 100% we actually should’ve started by now if we want to reach somewhere 😄that’s why we are on this group 😜But like you said, practice is a very important part as it mellows down our ego and helps us move in the right direction…

PA: 👏🏻👏🏻👍👍wonderful response MK

PK: My main goal for old age is to attempt to the best of my ability to be a gracious old lady… when I look around me it’s amazing to see how unusual it is 😃😃

PA: The whole discussion about after now or afterwards. I know many people who retired and planned to do this and that after retirement – funnily none of them have been able to pursue those goals as they have gone even more busier with their lives. So definitely worthwhile to rewrite ones life journey and purpose right now. In fact if we are convinced that something is the most important thing to do in life then why would we postpone ?

MK: 👏👏👍

PK: 12.15 Of whom (यस्मात्) the world (लोक:) is not afraid (नउद्विजते), and who (य: च) is not afraid (न उद्विजते) of the world (लोकात्), and the one who (य: च) is freed (मुक्त:) from elation (हर्ष:), intolerance (अमर्ष:), fear (भय) and anxiety (उद्वेगै), that one (स:) is dear to Me (मे प्रिय:).

अनपेक्षः शुचिर्दक्ष उदासीनो गतव्यथः। सर्वारम्भपरित्यागी यो मद्भक्तः समे प्रियः।।12.16।।

12.16 Without dependence (on anything for happiness) (अन् अपेक्षः), who is clean (externally and internally) (शुचि:), who is adept (दक्ष:), who is neutral (उदासीन:), who is not shaken by fear (गत व्यथः), completely renounced all (doership in) activities (सर्व आरम्भ परित्यागी) – he who is (in this way) devoted to Me (यो मद्भक्तः), that one (स:) is dear to Me (मे प्रिय:).

PK: 12:15-16 – The characteristics of an ideal devotee are further described in detail. Again, mostly self- explanatory. Apart from other attributes, including a lack of desire, the emphasis on lack of fear and anxiety caught my attention. IMO both fear and anxiety are manifestations of when we worry about losing control. I think all of us, consciously or unconsciously, strive to control our environment including our kids and others who love us , many times under the (mis)apprehension that it is for their benefit 😃. I am trying to let things ‘be’ and let things unfold as they may but find it quite hard in practice ( vs theory😃) .I struggle with the blurred line between “not controlling “and “indifference”

PA: It’s not that i don’t have excuses for not Doing what is really important to me. 🙏 I do realize my shortcomings and try to work towards them. Somedays i win and somedays i fail – just keep trying! We all have our fears and anxieties. One of our very good friends has said

FEAR – false evidence appearing real. That’s our mind which creates all the funny scenarios and creates fear and anxieties. My theory is that when faced with real life threatening situation your mind will not have a chance to create fear because one would have to ACT

PK: 👍👍👍

UB: 👍🏼👍🏼 Issue is – we are not convinced as yet… I in particular liked two traits – 1) One who is not afraid of anyone and even others are not afraid of him and 2) दक्ष: or adept. Usually, भक्त are pictured as incapable of anything and hence resorting to भगवान् while this one refers to one who is a capable person.

PK: Capable only of puja 😂😂.., I am just kidding of course 🙏🙏🙏

UB: 😀

PK: I hope u r not mad at me🙏

UB: Hahaha – why will I be?

PK: 😜😊

PK: FROM WHERE ARE YOU LOOKING? The joke of it all is that you are looking from your true nature right now without knowing it. If you would stop being fascinated with the contents of your mind, you would experience what I am saying. Feel your way into what I am saying rather than thinking about it. Only a self-concept looks and longs for God. Drop your self-concept and there is only God meeting God. Enlightenment is the restoration of cosmic humor – Adyashanti

PK: I have been thinking of this but it’s elusive 😃

UB: This statement will become clearer in Ch 13

UB: PK – You raised a point on the blurred line about “not controlling” and indifference. Some analogies may help here. When we leave kids at home and go to work, are we indifferent to them?  No. But we love our careers too and hence pursue career while loving kids. When we do not take up a transfer to another city even though it is good for career, we do this probably because we do not want our kids to stop going to a school that is good for them. This does not mean we are indifferent to our career. Interestingly, while we are not indifferent to either career or kids, we take actions that are seemingly indifferent to them.  Why?  Because in both case, we have भक्ति towards our own value system or comfort factor. No matter where we are all our actions are within the ambit of our comfort factor. We do not break this Lakshman Rekha in all our decisions and we may thus say that our भक्ति  today is towards our own comfort zone. This comfort zone of course is defined by our character,  our environment, etc.  We feel we are in control as long as we are in our comfort zone. Now, if we shift our भक्ति to ब्रह्म with the ज्ञान  that all is ब्रह्म, all else is a temporary transaction, this truth can liberate us. It does not mean we stop taking care of kids or parents or pursue career or not. We do all these actively and animatedly but evaluate all acts vis a vis the truth that I, he or she,  it,  etc is all ब्रह्म. We focus on our धर्म at all times and our comfort zone is thus an all encompassing one. We become free, yet act with all fervour and passion. That is the idea that needs to enter our persona intellectually.

PK: Very interesting …wish there were more practical details to navigate modern life 🙏🙏You and PK are probably a little ahead in this game/ process😃😃😃 FYI., it was interesting that when I thought about it this shloka and why this thought occurred and realized that were due to the fact that I recently accepted more responsibility at work (more hours not as much $$) 😃😃😃.., ( so my ego also managed also to  slip in a little brag there .., sigh … long way to go but life is good 🙏🙏🙏. I worry that it is easy to fall into self-fulfilling dharma philosophy – when I am late at work – it is Sharma cos kids need to be independent and the $$ are for their college ; when I leave work early leaving some undone to pick kids up from tennis it is also dharma cos I am a mom  – so dharma gets distributed according to my ” comfort zone” – How else does one operate ? 😃🙏🙏 I need a female working modern guru with kids to write a reasonable manual … in which nityapuja, cooking everyday and no using leftovers etc is optional ( sorry – could not resist 😃😃- just kidding ) HB , Vini and MK will agree with e 😃😃

PK: The above post sounds like I always agonize – I usually don’t … “Do what you can and most times it’s Good enough” is usually my take .., 😃😃😃

VB: Lazy

PK: Absolutely 😃😃Minimum effort for maximum output is Good enough

HB: I know of one uncle who could complete his graduation. So he did it after his retirement and also Visharad in tabla. He died soon afterwards. So I agree that we should not defer things till retirement. Enjoy everything while it lasts and when u can. I do seem to have problem here. I think I am a very empowering mom but my son doesn’t think so. He thinks I am the controlling type. I don’t think there will ever be any agreement on this issue😜😂

PA: 😄👍Well PK it’s on the contrary that anybody is ahead in this group as we all are unique in our own way but are here to learn our special lessons I think. The challenges and the inherent lessons from it are being given to us from time to time. For some it could be a lesson in faith and courage. For example: whenever there is a new unknown situation, fears and apprehensions rise up in taking  those initial steps. These are coming from the minds programming. Basically mind wants to control and in the unknown it loses its control hence it starts sending all kinds of information why this will be a mistake a failure. However as soon as One starts the journey (mind stops the chatter) help arrives and actually also one does not realize that how much of reserves on has to make the unknown known. It’s also the most enriching and fulfilling experience. Basically you have your fears but you sort of put it under your arm pit and walk along. For some it could be a on letting go and not being over attached.  Walking out of the comfort zone requires courage and faith however it can be developed by taking smaller steps

MK: My son was sitting with me and we were reading PK’s post together and he goes …see this is what you need to do …you are too controlling and that leads to fear & anxiety! Like HB says, I think I’m very empowering particularly with my son but he still feels the control ;)) it’s an interesting topic to discuss: fear, control & surrender. Probably we do not have such strong faith that we can surrender everything to him…maybe not saying/doing anything might get classified into inaction or not doing our Dharma properly…particularly with teenagers it’s a very thin line between control & indifference ;))

PA: Dear MK 👍👍👏🏻 Me too sistah me too .. the Perception Myth 😃😃 But one truth I have learnt is that it took me a while to appreciate my mom .., only when I was around 35 , I realized how strong and wise my mom is ( though she can and does drive me nuts frequently too 😃😃😃) .., “youth is wasted on the young”.., I tell my kids this all the time 😃😃😃…

PK: Nice … I think it’s very interesting that he keeps using the same word “sukh” to talk about what in English I would consider ” fleeting pleasures” vs joy/contentment (implied to be more lasting)….so many words in English with subtle differences – joy, happiness , pleasure , bliss , contentment etc for the gradients of sukh … I think most of us are cognizant and recognize the truth of mAny things he talked about .. habituation , the fleeting nature of the pleasures of material possessions , money being a good servant but a poor master etc etc … he still did not convince me to chuck it all up though 😃😃.., and love ( he did not touch on that much) is an immense force … complex and complicating 😃😃😃. I can love the world in a benign fashion (I intend no harm to anyone) but the love for my DH, kids .. that man to me is a different intensity of fierce 😃😃..,and brings me right back to the lure of both mystical and material matters 😂

UB: Let us take up this idea of “love”. At the core, we love ourselves. No force can change that. We are full of ourselves and even if we hate ourselves once in a while, it is probably because our mind and body may not have acted in line with a self-image of ourselves that we are in love with. So self-love is primary and universal. So why do we love another? We love another because we love ourselves first. Because such other makes us feel good about ourselves, we love the other and thus self-love stands at the base of love for another too. If the other does not make us feel good about ourselves, it is illogical to expect anyone to love the other. So if a person FALLS in love, such FALLING is on account of other person making me feel good about myself through praises, compliments and many (false) promises. 😊 But what about love in a family?  What about love of mother for kids? Some deeper happens here. Mother does not love kids just because it boosts her self-image. Here, a transfer of self happens. We can say that the self expands. The parents are their own eyes, their own body, their own emotions, etc within kids. So watching kids is akin to watching our own selves. And hence when kids feel the pain, parents feel the pain, when kids are happy, parents are happy,  etc. Even in the case of a close spousal relationship, the self expands and both act as one. It is an old saying that after years of living together, both wife and husband end up even looking alike and outsiders see no difference between wife.and husband. Thus, since the idea of self expands, love of wife and husband is also a form of self-love but a nobler and higher form. Given this, logically speaking, what is the message of अध्यात्म?  The whole universe is one body and mind – it is the body of भगवान्. We do not see it but it is true. Sometimes, when a gruesome accident happens in front of us, we faint. Why?  Our body did not experience pain – so why did it faint?  The answer is that a sort of self transference happened in such time and we experience the pain of the other as our pain only. But this is a fleeting अनुभव and we are back to our limited self. So what is the goal of अध्यात्म?  Goal is simply the expand the idea of self. Love for kids, spouse, career, nation, etc are nothing else but partial expression of the Divine love for ITSELF. So retain their too but also expand this love to others outside our self-created लक्ष्मण रेख. Expand this to other nations, expand this to all living beings and non-living beings. If we achieve this, we become the all, we become जीवनमुक्त, we are free and we regain our original ब्रह्म state.

UB: BTW, the above is not based on my personal logic. It is derived from the most famous conversation between Yagnavalkya and his wife Maitreyi recorded in one of the earliest Upanishads, the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad.

VN: Very nice UB👌👌 Thanks for sharing🙏🏻

VA: Amazing and deep notes UB..these must be printed and circulated…if at all the concept of “oneness” can spread world will b such a better place🙏🏽🙏🏽

VN: Very true 🙏🏻

MK: Impeccable explanation on Oneness, UB…I was going to coin you as ‘Babaji’ while reading  and then I read the last line. 😄😜 Many many thanks for sharing!!🙏🙏🙏

UB: All I am doing is copy and paste. Do not call me Babaji or my wife will not spare me 😀🙏🏼

MK: Sorry🙏🙏🙏 this is fantastic research!! Thank you!

PK: 👍👍👍… ek dum mast .. even the thought of expanding one’s inner consciousness or whatever we call it to attain this sends a tingle of either fear or excitement😃😃 down my spine .. To love/ identify with the entire world (jagatkutumbam) with the ferocity one reserves for one’s kith and kin is amazing to even ponder over . The shift in consciousness from ” I will do no one harm TO I will help when I can TO I will help to the utmost of my ability TO ultimately the dissolution of the word”help” cos everyone is an extension of ME and so there is no distinction .., in a way that causes no harm wow! 🙏🙏🙏…

UB: Very well put 👍🏼👍🏼. When I read Swami Krishnananda’s commentary on these verses for the first time, it was a stunning OOPS moment of my life. Wonderful idea indeed…..

PA: Bravo !!! 👏🏻👏🏻Excellent progression to the idea of oneness.👏🏻👏🏻 लोकआ समस्थेय सूखिनो भावन्तु – May all sentient beings be happy 😊

PK: 👍👍👍

PK: यो न हृष्यति न द्वेष्टि न शोचति न काङ्क्षति। शुभाशुभपरित्यागीभक्तितमान्यः स मे प्रियः।।12.17।।

12.17 He who (य:) does not get elated (न हृष्यति), nor does become displeased (न द्वेष्टि), does not grieve (नशोचति), does not require/ anticipate (न काङ्क्षति), who (naturally and) completely renounces (परित्यागी) (the status of being the doer and experiencer in) pleasant and unpleasant activity (शुभ अशुभ), who thus has devotion (भक्तिमान् य:)- that one (स:) is dear to Me (मेप्रिय:).

समः शत्रौ च मित्रे च तथा मानापमानयोः। शीतोष्णसुखदुःखेषु समःसङ्गविवर्जितः।।12.18।।

12.18 He who is same (समः) towards (another who takes himself or herself as) an enemy or a friend (शत्रौ चमित्रे च), towards respect and disrespect (मान अपमान य:), who is alike to both cold and heat (शीतोष्ण), pleasure and pain (सुखदुःखेषु), and who is free from all attachments (समः सङ्गविवर्जितः);

तुल्यनिन्दास्तुतिर्मौनी सन्तुष्टो येनकेनचित्। अनिकेतःस्थिरमतिर्भक्तितमान्मे प्रियो नरः।।12.19।।

12.19 The person for whom censure and praise are alike (addressing only this body or mind but not one’s self) (तुल्य निन्दा स्तुति), disciplined in speech (मौनी), satisfied (सन्तुष्ट:) with whatever (happens) (येन केन चिद्), homeless (अनिकेत:), whose knowledge is firm (स्थिरमति:), who thus has devotion (भक्तिमान् य:)- that one (नर:) is dear to Me (मे प्रिय:).

ये तु धर्म्यामृतमिदं यथोक्तं पर्युपासते। श्रद्दधाना मत्परमा भक्तास्तेऽतीवमे प्रियाः।।12.20।।

12.20 Those indeed who (ये तु) follow (पर्युपासते) this (इदं),  as was told (यथा उक्तं),  that is in keeping with धर्म(धर्म्याम्) and (is an expression of and leading to) complete freedom (अमृतं), who are endowed with conviction (in My teaching) (श्रद्दधाना), for whom I am paramount (मत् परमा) – such devotees (भक्ता:) as those are (ते) exceedingly dear to Me (अतीव प्रिया:).

PK: 12:17-20 – The characteristics of an ideal devotee are further detailed – equanimity again is key which I see as the critical lack of/ no distinction between the dualities most of us are embroiled in life (joy/ sorrow, success/ failure, friend/ for, auspicious / inauspicious etc etc… the goal is to go beyond the duality and focus on the oneness of Brahman . Much easier said than done, (as always) 😃😃The last shloka (12:20) uses the term “dharmamrtam Idam ” i.e this nectar of dharma” and “paryupasate sraddadhanah mat-paramah” I.e engaged/ focused on ME as the Supreme / paramount. The Lord states that devotees (with characteristics described from verse 13-19) following the path of Dharma and focusing on HIM as paramount are dear to him ( me PKh). However, Previously (7:16-17) the Lord detailing the types of devotees who worship HIM has asserted that HE is very dear to the devotee who is engaged in seeking knowledge i.e the man of wisdom who is self- realized and is devoted to ME is very dear to me.  My extrapolation is that Dharma and the Lord are synonymous and we all aim to attain this nectar of righteousness by meditation ( Dhyan) , worship ( bhakthi) , renunciation of ownership/ doership of actions( karm) or knowledge ( gyan) .  This concludes Chapter 12 which focused on Bhakthi

PK: Here is my 2 cents on Bhakthi which is more than likely to be completely wrong 😃😃😃.  When we start on this journey of self-realization, bhakthi is not independent of Dharma (bhakthi is a path and the typical novice is not accompanied by either perfect knowledge or mediation) . As one progresses with the right attitude and focus on the path chosen based on one’s natural inclinations, eventually I guess the paths tend to intertwine i.e the gyanyogi or DhyanYogi or karmayogi may be infused with Bhakthi . Similarly, the Bhakthi path devotee with/without right karm may get a glimpse into Dhyanyog/ or attains gyan about the non- duality of Self etc etc. This entire process, like VB suggested, may not be sequential – one can jump steps/ paths and based on previous shlokas, Bhakthi alone over time can lead to self- realization. This makes it both intriguing and probably easier with a wise Guru. However, trusting one’s soul implicitly, without the certainty that the teacher is worthy is a daunting task🙏 OTH, going it alone is a long tedious path with two steps forward, one step back and one step in a linear direction 😃😃… but if it’s fun / interesting/ meaningful / desirable (the adjectives are as varied as the devotee and the commitment), why the heck not? Maybe we are waiting for the Teacher, maybe we are not. In any way I see it we are all on our way home. To me , bhakthi is essentially a two person process ( the devotee and the Lord) and at some point the key of self- realization is to make it ONE/ non- dual. Hence , although for each individual the journey is as important as the destination , eventually all the paths converge making distinction of how one got to the top of the mountain less important. The key is a natural inclination of like-minded folks to aggregate (again mostly, not always) 😃 IMHO, The reason for the mild bias towards bhakthi path prescribed by whoever is translating these shlokas maybe due  to the fact that it is collegial , in sync with our physical form , imparts discipline to those who require it/ are attracted to this firm of discipline based on their inclinations etc etc . This may be total bakvaas, cos what do I know? 😃😃 This was a learning experience and THANKS much UB for this 🙏🙏🙏🙏 Now, the ball back to you my friend for the remaining part of this interesting journey

HB: PK it is very difficult to deal with acronyms at this age. What is IMHO and OTH??

PK: In my humble opinion (IMHO)

On the other hand (OTH)

Sorry 😃😃

UB: Perfect summary PK – I thought this would have stirred you to take up the rest of the Gita fully by yourself.  😀 This was a small chapter but best debates/ discussions ensued. Whenever you are fine to pick up a later chapter, do let me know.

UB: You have rightly, in fact very rightly picked up the core message very well viz to live as per धर्म at all times is indeed भक्ति.  And thus, this is not a distinct path since whether you are a कर्मी or a ज्ञानी, you need to be on the path of धर्म. And whosoever felt that भक्ति means simply singing भजन, one would have sensed that this is not so. To live as per धर्म however is not easy. So we need role models. And because texts have given various role models like राम, कृष्ण, हनुमान, etc., if we are inclined towards anyone of these TO FOLLOW धर्म AT ALL TIMES emulating the कर्म done by these, we are a भक्त. If we are naturally ज्ञान oriented, we do धर्म following the idea of Oneness and thus our भक्ति is towards the One in whatever form – शिव, नारायण, शक्ति. Net net, at initial stages, we emulate another but eventually, doing धर्म at all times, we acquire ज्ञान. Then the need for an external role model reduces as we become Universal. The beauty of these verses is that good values alone are not enough and these make meaning only if they are infused with भक्ति. So if one does दान, it is not because this is a religious edict or because you want to do good to others, etc. Just like if one hand is injured, the other hand rushes to tend to it or if the head is injured, the legs rush to take the head to the hospital, when another being NEEDS help, one does दान to another only because such other is part of the ONE of whom we are also a part and tending to such other is akin to tending to another part of our own body. Humanity alone is not enough unless it is irrigated by the nectar of भक्ति. Only then, humanity is pursued out of conviction and certainty without accretion of ममकार & अहंकार. Without भक्ति, there is a danger that trait of humanity may get dented in specific circumstances when a good guy suddenly turns unruly shocking people all around him. So cultivate both human virtues as well as भक्ति – both are key.

PA: What an excellent and remarkable effort and summary PK 👏🏻👍👍👏🏻

MK: Thanks PK 👍🙏👏

PK: 👌👌👍👍🙏🙏Danke my friend 🙏🙏. And thanks much UB – will take up on your offer after a bit 🙏🙏 I love this ..,however I will add ( playing devil’s advocate as always) that here the word bhakthi implies the right attitude or right reason i.e helping not out of a sense of superiority/ religious edict / etc etc .. but rather out of a sense on oneness with humanity without regard to praise/ censure …however the word bhakthi here brings up  connotations ( fully wrong but susceptible to misinterpretation by those not cognizant of the true meaning ) that implies that religious edicts/ religious temperament is paramount …at least I interpreted  it like that until very recently and it used irritate the crap out of me … to be honest a ” religious” outlook is not in many many folks correlated with morality , values or knowledge 😃😃😃.. Cos many are just going through the motions .. this brings up the critical fact that intent matters more than actions … occasionally actions may end up in undesirable outcomes but to me if intent was right all is good … there is a reason that is beyond our comprehension …(involving prarabdha etc) but meaningless / thoughtless actions no matter deemed ” pure/ good/ auspicious” by the world are in my mind at the very least useless and at the very most dangerous 🙏🙏🙏. In other words, I am more afraid of a “religious” person causing amok than a secular one 😃😃

VB: I guess you meant areligious and not secular.

PK: I was trying to come up with a bland word … avoiding agnostic or atheistic 😃😃😃 Areligious is fine 😃😃😃

AK: In every sphere of life, if the learned person does something perverted, it’s the biggest sin. I believe that’s who you refer to as “religious” run amok. 😀. But as our mom says, we are all in different levels of gyan and capacity of gyan. So even if many of us do actions without true knowledge I believe that’s the first step. At the end of the day there is only so much a person can progress in this journey without gyan. Guess what I am trying to arrive at is there is a place for seekers who do just bhajans and follow auspicious rules. 😀

PK: I was waiting for you to come in sistah 😃😃😃… you and I have good ne down this road before 😃😃… I fully agree with you regarding a learned person and sin. I fully agree with you regarding mom’s wise advice about capacity for gyan and all of us being st different places in our journey. I guess I am ok with folks doing Bhavani’s and auspicious rules (we are all Fred to do what we want ) – I disagree on the premise that you and mom have that it is useful at that point … however I do many many useless things so whom am I to object 😃😃? I do object to the condescension that many folks (mom you and I know such folks) have that  doing pujas  and following rules that makes them superior … I am ok with mom urging out me of love and concern 😃😃😃…I did do the upanayam in full style didn’t I? (small halo still remains at how happy mom and dad were 😃😃😃

VB: I agree PK and hence I somehow tend to lean toward living rightly rather than following a certain religion. VB: True AK. Place for all. But certainly not a place who do nityapuj and then break all “right” things. And hence i greatly view with scepticism most priests. Maybe I am cynical. I feel Gita provides a nice framework to explain the reason for living, how to live etc. I am not at a level where I can even describe what all Gita does. And so I want to follow as much as possible But what if I get a better framework tomorrow? I am sure I will change party

PK: I told you we are more alike than different 😃🙏 I don’t think there is anything wrong with that .. I wanted to read and learn something about the Gita cos at some point it occurred that I was more aware of edicts of other religions 😃😃… I figured (at long last) that before arguing/ disagreeing  one needs to know the premise  as well as background research/ info … I was flaunting the basic premise of a scientist … this journey of Gita with our group has been very very enjoyable and educational for me … but that does not mean I will close my eyes to other folks if they can explain it better / equally well 😃😃😃

VB: 👍👍

AK: Honestly who am I to talk. You all do nitya puja everyday for gyan. I don’t do that also. But sometimes I harbor this innate dislike to anyone telling me about the rituals and do and don’ts. Maybe the first step here is to let it go and say we all are doing our best.  That will enable a dialogue rather than an arguement when the time comes for it. And maybe you might change their mind.😀

VB: UB has been patient, wise, guru for me

PK: Agree with every word except the part of you not doing nityapuja for gyan- on that statement, I will just say that you underestimate yourself and your ability to influence me severely sistah ❤❤❤

UB: There will be priests who do not follow religious edicts in spirit as there will be imperfect doctors or engineers or accountants. There will be people who do नित्यपूज and show superiority complex as there will be people who do not do नित्यपूज and show their superiority complex of their perceived nobility. But there will be people who do both and do not have any superiority complex. I guess we need to merely focus on what good others do and emulate them if we find value in them. What others say or brag about merely has entertainment value and we probably should just smile at just assertions and move on…..

VB: Satyavachan