VB: If we are all connected by same one, why do we need to slap. U May try to justify it by saying that it is to acquaint the other with his purush. But what gives us the authority to do so. He is doing wrong because of his past Karma’s and because he is not doing right things now. Should we not be working with the person to ensure he sees the right thing. Else, we will pick up fights with all on the pretext that we r helping them. Pretty soon we r in a Lawless place. I understand slap was just a figurative use. But if we take upon ourselves to correct others by means other than laws of society, I do not think it is right. Way I look at it, would Vivekananda , ramakrishna paramhansa , ever wud do such a thing as hurting any other person

PK: Touche my friend 🙏🙏well inserted 😂

PA: This piece is Also interesting

PK: For now a good book and an occasional glass of wine suffice ….why worry about what works for others right ? My svadharm executed imperfectly etc etc..,I am charmed and awed by the Lord’s Lila … life is good and we are blessed 🙏🙏. I am grateful for this Prarabdh😃🙏. If it happens naturally so be it … if not what are lifetimes for? 😃😃

UB: Yes – this is a wonderful question that is asked in Vedanta. It states that all our actions are done in our waking life consciously using मन & बुद्धि. But when we go to sleep, what agency causes dreams? Since मन is unconscious in a dream, could it be बुद्धि that consciously gives us the dream experience? But in deep sleep, both become inactive. So if बुद्धि is also inactive in deep sleep, who nudges the बुद्धि to wake up?  This “who” has to be outside बुद्धि who needs to wake up बुद्धि . Or could it be that this entity which nudges बुद्धि to wake up the body from deep sleep is also within बुद्धि itself and it remains awake?  Vedanta says that it is Vasanas that keep a body alive. But I am not aware of modern dream research work on this space and maybe they have a more sensible explanation that makes these Vedantic speculations irrelevant. I do not know.

UB: VB – good question. Few points

1) First, one needs to realize that अध्यात्म does not mean being goody-goody to all. It means following धर्म and in following the process, others perceive themselves as being hurt,  then so be it.

2) If a tongue enjoys Gulab Jamun, does mind have authority to stop its joy owing to Diabetes? After all, Diabetes is a concern of stomach and not the tongue 😊. If a leg is infected, who has given authority to बुद्धि to amputate the infected part of the leg? Because body has a feeling of oneness, one part takes decisions on behalf of others.

UB: 3) Is Krishna not asking Arjuna to fight with Kauravas and kill them? Did Rama not leave his house to follow धर्म even though his father pleaded with him to stay back and even put his father to jail to remain in Ayodhya? Was Rama not hurting his father? But he still did it.

4) Lastly, this verse was meant to describe how one who has either achieved पुरुष will behave or one who follows धर्म will encounter – like a judge sentencing his criminal son to jail even though this hurts the son, himself and his family. But this is not meant for someone like me who is deep in प्रकृति but going out of the way to seemingly rectify others and be a menace to the society as well as himself.

UB: Key message is – do be धार्मिक does not being goody goody. It is about following धर्म always. And this is how we are meant to study Saints and their decisions too.  None of the saints were “nice” and “sweet”. They were tough and unrelenting with all around them.

HB: 👌 agree about book, swadharma, prarabdh and 🍷

UB: Simply put, मन is the seat of emotions, बुद्धि is the seat of decisions where beliefs/ perspectives reside and कारण शरीर is the spot where Vasanas reside. Also, I think there are 3 states of mind even as per psychology – conscious, sub-conscious and unconscious. Am I right?

PA: Well said! 👍👍 It’s probably to keep in mind that a soldier who is instructed to fight for his country also kills and hurts people but he is finally doing his dharma. A person fighting for justice give sentence to a person and his innocent family suffers so he also hurts them but it’s his dharma. Hurting someone just out of our anger, frustration (as you said) or mostly inferiority complex is probably not the right thing. Finally one has to think after a outburst that why I had it. Another thing is that whatever on someone else makes us angry frustrated irritated also points in our direction that there is definitely some improvement or work to be done

PK: I agree with VB’s conundrum … UB’s explanation is very nice but the answer is usually found in hindsight …thus is very hard to practice in RL ( real life) without coming across as a pompous  a…hole of the first order 😃😃 who is to say that I am right and the other person is wrong … maybe the first step in the adhatym gyan phase (which is very very far for me) all one can and should do is to attempt to walk in the other (wo)man’s stilletos before deciding who is following Dharma or not … and most of the time serve food and walk away limping 😃😃😃…unfortunately there is no Lord Krishna , Rama or wise sages walking around in Kaliyuga whom one can trust implicitly 😃😃..

PK: This chapter I have to admit is losing me … for the first time in this journey this feels esoteric and not a little impractical for RL

Examples

1. Beauty is only to observe purush? Who defines that? Is Michaelangelo’s Pieta not beauty? A beautiful building like the colosseum is not beauty?
2. Who decides the kind between goody goody vs pushing the Hindu / adhatym agenda on the world? Who are we to metamorphically throw the first stone and call it Dharma?

All one can do is improve oneself a bit but at some time we said morality by itself is useless – is it really? Just because it is not accompanied by a religious doctrine? Is the goal of wishing to lead a moral life not good enough by itself? Values like empathy, gratitude etc etc

PK: I like this world … with its beauty and chaos and love .., there is ugliness for sure but there is a lot of good as well … I am not willing to give up on it yet .. Moksha yet does not have such allure as material matters 😃😃😃😃 All I can say is life is good in all its mundane majesty 🙏🙏🙏

PK: I am very very low in the spiritual scale but I am mostly happy .., I am not distressed or afraid by the concept of death or old age or disease … i deal with death and disease daily in my work life .., I am charmed by the Lila of the world and am cognizant and grateful for my myriad blessings recognizing that in the next moment everything may change …but I am determined to not forget that I have had 46 years of mostly a good life .., that is a lot more than many many folks …I thought of all this while I watched the cute  child with superb memory chanting the Gita .. and that the only inevitables are death and taxes 😃😃😃

UB: There is too much in the response and I do not know where or how to even respond 😀😀. Or maybe no response is being sought 😀😀. So I will leave it at that.   ..

UB: When this girl was asked to name as favourite verse, she quoted the verse from Ch 13 where भगवान् uses the line – हृदि सर्वस्य विष्ठितम्.

PK: Let’s keep going … maybe this is a hiccup .., may be it’s not 🙏🙏

UB: I will probably begin Ch 14 Next Week. In the meantime, all are requested to least say a few words (some of you have been active in the daily exchanges too) of what you liked, disliked, agree,  disagree,  etc. It will be good to know what all are thinking so that all can learn from such exchanges.

PA: Is it not the subconscious mind that is active when we sleep? Actually the classic question is that what is real ? Is it the dream world that’s real or the real world that we think to be real a dream? For us they are 2 different worlds. They say for a awakened one therw is no distinction it’s all just one world.  The subconscious mind is one one which has recorded every belief system, likes dislikes, traumas. A reservoir of ver long term memory. It’s actually holding the blue print of our life of lifetimes. This is tapped into during healing sessions be the hypnotist for example.  Our reactions for example to certain situations are triggered by the subconscious mind.  One. Could in principle override these deep set belief systems by several methods. I feel we get born into human life also to pass some kind of tests and life keep throwing those tests at you. For example for some it could be a lesson in forgiving letting go and move one for some it could be being courageous for others being compassionate.  For some it could be or letting go of material attachments. For example I have seen many Americans do not seem to hold on to things and they give it away to other people (sell it at a cheap price) and move on. They also not afraid of new beginnings.  The more tests we pass the higher level we advance to. Vasanas as such is just unfulfilled desires or strong attraction (rag dwesha ) which has root cause in strong attachment to the unreal.

PK: I have wondered about this too PA … I guess the first question is even attempting to figure that test out let alone overcoming it … it seems clear to some folks … is this where the unconscious mind kicks in ? But the unconscious also throws out so much crap .., I like and recognize the difference between the unconscious mind/thoughts/reactions vs deliberate / conscious .thoughts and actions.  The difference between mind and buddhi (intellect) as defined is still unclear to me …

VB: There is a huge range of emotions between being nice/sweet/goody and being angry and taking violent action against someone. My basic point resonates with what PK said. Who gave me the right to take action on other. Let us take a real life example. I am driving. Someone cuts across when he had a red and causes me to brake suddenly. Very normal scenario. What do I do?

1) honk. Swear at him and his female relatives. Do verbal violence

2) follow her. See PK, I am being gender equality. Stopand shout. Of it gets bad, engage into physical violence

3) think bad thoughts abt him. Give baddua

4) smile and go on. Which I do. Not because I am scared or busy or coward or anything. I Ave realized the futility of doing any of the above and I ignore hoping he will pay when the time comes.

VB: If u think we should do 2 because it is the right thing, who gave us the right to be the law. If u think we should do 1 , what is the limit for such verbal violence. If u think it is 3, how does it impact the purush in him. No way. So, in this “specific” example, how do you apply the learnings. I am trying to see how to apply the gyan in real life. I think taking action as per our dad dharma in reprimanding the child is easy to understand. What happens when we are not aware of the extent of our dharma

VB: UB, please do not treat this as stretching a point. I am trying to reconcile the 2 statements – all of us part of same one or more importantly we all are one AND we should be treating, sometimes, others with emotions that are hostile.

UB: Common sense continues to prevail even for धर्म. धर्म will not want anyone to police the world. धर्म is always not about others but always about us. In the case at hand, you have given choices like chasing someone or cursing someone or teaching others how to drive. None of these is your responsibility even as per Law and none is this similarly is meant to be our धर्म too.  Chasing someone owing to anger is emotional and wanting to improve the world is social activism – both are needless. धर्म applies when you or me have to do a certain action as per our role either in office or in the road or at home. If you are thus meant to take some action as an employee or as a sensible citizen on the road while you are driving or as a husband or wife, if your actions can hurt someone, that is the case of धर्म संकट.  If this aspect prevents you from doing the right thing as your role demands, what do you do is the classic धर्म संकट situation where a decision needs to made. My limited point was that in such situations, if you take the action of least confrontation just so that you do not hurt someone, that may not be धर्म. That may be timidity and we cannot give it a noble garb of धर्म. Not sure if this conveys the point or muddles the narrative further.

PK: When I am in a rush, I do a combo of option one and three ( lots of four letter words/ vent out my irritation at lack of civility  especially if no kids in car) , feel marginally better and then regret my loss of temper and bad wishes after 10 minutes and then wish I had done option 4 😂😂😂… working on regretting faster so that at some point in distant future I will be at option 4 right from the go ( you are way better at this 😃😃)

VB: So what action should one take in the scenarios described

UB: As long as anger, frustration and disgust are not the trigger for your action, any action js fine. You can smile and move on or you can go after the guy if you have time and find out why the person did what he did. Even slapping is fine as long as anger, frustration, disgust,  etc are not the basis of action. Now you may come and slap me 😀. धर्म just means an objective or unbiased action. That is all. It is not some religious edict or some diktat in some book.

VB: Actually, no point in slapping if no anger or disgust behind it. No reason to slap at all. No way it can be justified.

VN:Definitely such actions are generally result of anger and disgust but then no use making it your swabhaav.

UB: I think we should stop seeing Gita as a “religious” book and instead see it as a book that conveys a certain attitude to adopt if one connects with the idea of Universal oneness. Once the religion word is set aside, one will probably not read every word as a forced prescription but merely as ideas conveyed by a smart human being who achieved oneness in the past.

PK: I agree with you – I am trying to read it as more a “way of life” book rather than doctrine- that’s why the beauty and purush examples threw me off completely .., seemed to be very “Hindu-centric” … negating other celebrated artistic endeavours…

PA: Totally agree👍👍 I think we should stick with our world mystic studies or on the search of the truth

PK: Freud describes 3 components. Id- primitive, instinctive component; present at birth, unconscious impulsive part of psyche..pleasure driven to some extent. Ego or I: realistic and tries to mediate Id and external world.. is pleasure driven as well but realistic unlike primitive Id.. ego has no concept of right and wrong either. Super-ego – incorporated values, morals – includes conscience, guilt etc. I am not sure how one distinguishes between subconscious and unconscious … in my novice knowledge I would lump them in one category but I am no expert 😃😃

VB: Corollary – This means that if our बुद्धि feels that पूज is a good use of time, even though our मन does not see people learn and derive joy from पूज, our बुद्धि tells our मन to shut up and we embrace the idea of benefit to पूज (UB – this was deliberate 😊😊😊).

PK: And I am so low on the totem pole of spiritual evolution that neither my mann nor buddhi are convinced of nityapuja at present so both are in sync in their lack of awareness 😂

PA: 😄👍

UB: I was hoping this had come earlier…..

UB: PK: Not sure what is Hindu centric about पुरुष – प्रकृति and what are other artistic endeavours. What does Hindu centric mean?

PK: Your examples in that discussion of prakriti- purush and one vision  were all Hindu religious based .. shiva Parvati etc etc… that’s Hindu- centric …and I thought ( wrongly may be 😃) that was a huge stretch ( Grand Canyon wide) from what the shloka meaning was implyinf which time was more on unifying and finding commonalities  … your explanation pretty much dinged art museums and any architectural beauty as all prakriti .., I disagree with that and think there is purush in any art form .., there is a difference between a stone and the colosseum  .., there is purush ( if that is the word to use) .., there is absolutely beauty in both the colloseum and paintings at Louvre  or Effel tower or Michakengelo’s Pieta.. one need not only go to Hindu temples to find purush … and neither is puja mandatory .. do what brings you peace is my mantra .. sorry but that entire shloka explanation explanation was unnecessarily Hindu centric and to some extent put me off … that’s me though, always a #rebelwithoutacause … so feel free to ignore my comments …although I will admit that many Hindu temples are beautiful as well.., so it’s not that I am disagreeing there . beauty ad VB suggested very lightly 😃😃lies in the eyes of the beholder .., we see what we wish to see ..,

UB: Aha!!!!! Now I get it. I used these examples because the audience would be familiar – that is all. There is a term – monkey balancer which means that just to sound objective, I bring in other examples also that are non-Indian. 😀 More seriously, when I say that Indian temples are beautiful, does it mean others are not?  But more specifically, I said that Indian temples are not beautiful because they are grand or beautiful to the eye, they are great because they convey an अध्यात्म idea. Even if a temple is ugly or noisy, if it conveys an अध्यात्म idea,  it makes the place valuable. And I mention पुराण examples to convey that stories seem to convey similar ideas. I use Indian examples since these emanated from the ideas within the Gita. Outside India, an idea of temple with मूर्ति designed with this principle is not present to my knowledge. If there is, you may add such examples and I will also get inspired too.

PK: Every example I gave above (and it is by no means comprehensive)  is in my opinion is  as adhyatmic as any temple .. I realize that the Gita was contextually Indian and Hindu .., but I think the new leaders and teachers need to broaden their discussion .. sadhguru is one example that comes to mind although folks think he is pandering to western audiences 😃😃

PK: I truly believe insularity gets you nowhere … whether religion , country or community … when the Gita tells us to go “inward” that is a personal journey … for the world reaching out is essential .. no man is an island and neither is any country .. we need to stop building walls and build more dining tables instead 😃😃😃… so we can sit down and eat together … 😂😂😂…

PK: I read 30 more pages of Rajiv M and all I see is west bashing … I agree with him that India is great .., Hinduism is as good as any other religion … I am just exasperated by his bashing others (read it as the west) and pointing out only differences to show how good we are .., I  not sure what purpose it serves except to make us more insular … yes we were colonized but now we are independent … I feel like telling him can we move on? If he wants to spread Hinduism, go do it like the evangelical christians – who is stopping him? Why does he have such a huge chip on his shoulder?

UB: There is a difference between भव्य and दिव्य. भव्य stands for grand and awe-inspiring while दिव्य means it is conveying a spiritual idea. I will recognize Grand Canyon as भव्य. How is it दिव्य if for others to convey to me since you may have seen them, I have not. Praising our environment is being proud. Praising ourselves only but junking others is pride or arrogance. I take care not to junk others but because I do not know them well. But praise all just to sound objective is monkey balancing. And to praise others only and not ourselves is self-hating. And to do a discussion based on reasoned arguments to highlight gaps of others is a debate. Lots of non-Gita definitions.  😀😀😀

PK: I guess I see Grand Canyon as ” divya” as any Hindu temple … it is way more than” praising our environment” … any art that touches our soul is adhyatmic principe to me … and if folks well versed in adhyatmic principles disagree with me .,  I have no problems or issues with that 😃😃😃… different strokes for different folks and all that 😃😃😃

PK: I see purush in all my examples … is not that adhyatmic enough? I see the unifying principles of Gita .. Samatvam … outside our country … is that not adhyatmic? Michakengeko’s Pieta is a stunning sculpture of Jesus dying in mary ‘s arms … as visually appealing, aesthetically pleasing as any ram- sits or Vishnu / Lakshmi idol in any famous temple – is that not adhyatmic ? Trying to find unity globally is more than mere sunny optimism … it is a worthy goal. There is more to the world than India … again that does not mean India is not great 😃😃😃

UB: Nooooo – inform me what is the Gita principle you saw in GC. Do not say it conveys the idea by not telling how.

UB: I see Rajiv as a disruptor doing a debate while you see him as arrogant. I read a lot more of Rajiv and saw most of his speeches and that has shaped my opinion

PK: Rajiv M IMHO is an arrogant man who seeks fame by disparaging others … I have scant respect for such folks … but what do I know? 🙏🙏🙏

UB: Have you heard about a book called Orientalism by Edward Saad? In the 70s, it raised concerns about biases in Western depiction of the East? It created violent ripples in the field of social science and caused the birth of a new field called as Post Modern studies. Rajiv is merely continuing that tradition commenced by Edward Saad. Visual appeal, aesthetic appeal may touch the soul but unless the principles are clearly articulated, it does not make it Adhyatmic. I see visual appeal in Birla Mandir but I will not call it Adhyatmic. That is the point I am trying to convey

PK: To those who are constantly devoted (सततयुक्तानां) and worship Me (भजतां) with love (प्रीतिपूर्वकम्), I give the understanding and wisdom by which they can come to Me (10-10)-

I saw the above principle at work at St Peter’s Basilica in Rome ( built as gorgeously and lovingly as any temple) and saw crying at Pieta statue  and touching Jesus’s feet. (his shoes were smooth) – I touched it too and thought how is this different from our namaskaram at temples? I am not a Christian but felt the Lord there … if he had a different form does it matter? Is this not adhyatmic? Or is restricted only to Hinduism? 🙏🙏🙏

PK: If sincere devotion ( bhakthi) is key as you have emphasized over and over again , is a Christian prayingto jesus with devotion not in concordance with bhakthimarg and adhyatmic principles ?

PK: Gita was written when people made pilgrimages of hundreds of miles and that was huge … now we can traverse the world but still we cling to the fact that Dharma exists only in India? As I have said I feel that before if it is the absolute truth it has to apply everywhere … otherwise we need to go back and ponder about where we made an error in our thinking 🙏🙏🙏🙏. Folks like Rajiv M are trying their best to keep desis as ” koopmanduks” …

PK: Why is Birla Mandir not adhyatmic?

UB: I have been to Ajmer Dargah, Churches on Goa as well as Bandra in Mumbai too. I never implied that Dharma existed only in India only. Birla Mandir मूर्ति at many places I have seen does not convey the पुरुष – प्रकृति idea. It shows a single Krishna and therefore I said what I said. If it shows both, it is Adhyatmic. There is no Garba Griha idea as in traditional temples. Maybe I should convey non-Dharma aspects of Hinduism too to show I am objective 😀

PK: Who made the rule that Krishna can never be shown alone? These rules Seems arbitrary to me … it maybe totally because I have it read in depth .., and may be the same with the folks who built Birla Mandir 😃😃😃. But making the rules more important than the intent does not seem very practical .. seems like following the letter of the law rather than the principle of the law 😃😃😃. I did not mean to suggest that you said Dharma is only in Hindu … the examples always given because they are familiar as you have said perpetuate this myth … it’s time we explains our horizons is all I am suggesting … seems right to me and one thing I have begun to believe is that it is critical not to do just do or believe anything just cos the” leaders / priests/ teachers/ wise folks/ parents” tell you to ..,this may be my arrogance but again better for me that way … I may learn slower but it will stick better …I am an adult and part of being an adult is exercising my privilege to disagree respectfully .. truly UB no disrespect intended … i am enjoying this give and take and have learned much …I usually do not air my controversial views so candidly … I should shut up for sometime now 🙏🙏🙏

UB: The author you suggested to me is also doing Christianity bashing. But because it is from atheistic lens,  it is liberal but if done from Hindu lens,  is it parochial?

PK: He is a Christian bashing his religion … that’s the difference ..,..Rajiv M is propping up Hinduism by bashing others … a low blow I think

UB: Very strange argument – fully disagree. This view is hugely problematic and anti-intellectual. By this logic, one should never read texts of other religions or if one reads,  one should not raise questions because it insults the other. By this logic,  a scientist cannot criticize religion nor a religious person talk about science since they are popping up their own field in the process. By this logic, all American Universities should close down Hinduism studies since they are manned by Christians. This is political correctness taken to the extreme. So you is rejecting Rajiv without even reading him and even while reading, your prism of viewing is already made. Does this not go against the open mind idea?  In India,  debates were common between Vedanta schools with each other as well as with non-Vedanta school. In your scheme of things, this is a low blow job. Very strange, I would say.

VB: Bashing without logical reasoning is wrong. Does not matter if it is from atheistic lense or Hindu lens. What matters is the strength of reasoning. Focus on that. Baba Bhale uwacha…😀 I like RM reasoning and hence liked the book, whatever I read. Did not agree at many places…so what…he made a lot of sense in other places. And my disagreement is mostly because I am talking from common sense and he is talking from a position of knowledge. Only place where I can talk from position of strength us. Food and sudoku

VN: True…😊

VB: Let me give a personal example of experience of spirituality. I went to big island in Hawaii that has the live volcano and u can lava gushing out and u can see how land got created and is still getting created. You can the crater with a 12-mile circumference and the live head of volcano inside that. The vastness of landscape, the flatness of expanse, the phenomenon of creation, left me and my wife and son dumbstruck. We realized that we are nothing in this world. We are a  small piece on this jig saw and were humbled. Nothing more. Just humbled. No extra insights like why bear enmity or be angry, we r nothing etc etc. Nothing of those truths. Just humbled. To me that was a “spiritual” experience. I got the same when I see GC. Whatever gives me peace of mind, is a temple. Whatever cleanses my mind of any evil or bad thoughts is temple. And not for 10 seconds. But for much longer time

PK: Amen 👏👏🙏. And luckily for me lots of things do give me peace of mind … including my occasional glass of wine 😂😂

VB: I am suspecting that this glass of wine is crossing over from occasional…😀😀

VN: happy to know that the other option is still open because though how much ever we wanted just to smile and move on is so difficult. But yes makes sense that whatever be our action we must not carry it with us. It’s more easy to forgive people then.

UB: Even a resort gives a peace of mind. As I said,  there is a difference between भव्य & दिव्य.  Himalayas is also awe inspiring. It humbles us. But this has nothing to do with अध्यात्म. Overuse of “spiritual” word actually devalues the word. Everything is good or everything is nice without understanding what is good or nice is pop-spirituality. It is not ज्ञान but emotion. And emotion is not wrong. It is helpful but it is at a मन level only and not at the आत्म level.

VB: I think this over analysis of things sometimes robs the benefits that the things bring.

UB: 😀😀

PA: So here is the link. https://youtu.be/DPO-uvrsjw4 It’s a really nice video of you guys get a chance

UB: PK: The distinction I had in mind is this – independence in the way it is seen means ability to make self-decisions, ability to do critical thinking, etc without depending on others or without getting influenced by others. Freedom however means freedom from influence of प्रकृति and how a person acts is something we have seen in the last few verses of Ch 12 (this will come up again). Independence word is taught in terms of how one should be while living in a society while freedom is an internally driven trait in the lines defined by Gita. Thus, one who is independent as per this meaning may not be free while one who is free will certainly be independent too.  This is my दृष्टि of these terms.

UB: PK – the current day understanding of making distinction between “spiritual” and “religion/ culture” is not something I can connect with. What we see as religion is practical application in day to day life of spiritual philosophy. Spiritual is theory while religion is practice. Now and then of course, practice turns deviant or becomes a ritual but practice will not be a ritual once connection with the theory is made. And also bad practices end up clouding reality, one goes back to theory and eliminates the practice. A religion disconnected with theory is no religion and theory not practically followed is no spirituality, it is mere intellectualism. Religion and spirituality, in my view, are akin to thought and action. All actions are based on a thought while all thoughts make sense when they are converted to action. Action without thought is a dumb action and thought without action is armchair day dreaming.

PK: Your explanation is correct but I would assert theoretical …it is very hard to change entrenched religious practices “actions” .., many are arbitrary , harsh and not amenable to change … many have no value . In such a situation ” spiritual ” is starting with a clean slate .. thinking about makes sense and then incorporating actions that fit those thoughts … giving up practices that have no relevance to modern life

PK: Puránamityeva na sádhu sarvam, na chápi kávyam navamityavadyam

Not everything old is good, not everything new is bad: Kalidasa

UB: 😀 I guess we have made each others’ points and we can pause it here. Now I am hoping someone attempts a summary of Ch 13. And should I start Ch 14 on Tuesday next week?  Or more time is needed?

PK: 🙏🙏🙏

Discussion on a video where a girl aged 8 who started learning Gita from the age of 3 has fully memorized the Gita

UB: What do we make out of this girl singing Gita since the age of 3 and mastered the whole Gita by 8?

UP: Prabhu leela🙏🏽😃

HB: Wow

UP: Who created the child with super memory and gave her the zeal and circumstances to use her skill this way! 🙏🏽😃

PS: Just sad.  Does she enjoy this?  I would rather the girl go out and play… she’s getting robbed of the best years of her life.  How many of you here would do this to your own kid?   If you would, why haven’t you?  If you wouldn’t, why don’t you feel sorry for this girl…

PS: PK don’t stop… (Just because you think you’re being controversial).

PK: Mujhe pitwana chahta  hai kya PS? 😂😂

PS: Re the whole slapping thing, I was in PK and VB’s camp re who are we to decide who should be slapped… but after watching the video, I’m firmly in UB’s camp – the parents of that girl need some treatment.

PK: I gave that girl the benefit of thinking that this superb memory of her may give her other opportunities .. at least that’s what I hope. If I do not believe or cling no to that hope , I would feel like you PS

PS: Now one could argue that this is no different from a child prodigy in music, but I’ve seen some small kids who are really good at music – they show an aptitude and strong liking for it – I can recall a little girl who could just play out a tune on a keyboard after hearing it one time, but this is different – in my view this is being forced, I doubt the girl does this naturally.  So yes I agree with PK – I hope her skills will lead to some different opportunities for her.

PK: UB : you are not angry I hope 🙏🙏🙏

PS: Of course I don’t have any other information about her, so maybe I’m wrong. 🙂

PK: I agree with you PS .. I hope she is not being forced … that she is doing it out of her free will and she will get other opportunities … as we have no inf that hope is all that is keeping me from bashing her parents 😃😃😃

PS: A 3-yr old doesn’t have free will, nor does an 8-yr old… not a girl in India anyway.

4/28/17, 06:37 PK: Well let me say positive reinforcement / praise / fame masquerading as free will mayhap? 😃😃

VB: I found the video both awe-inspiring and sad. Awe inspiring because of what all can happen in the world really unbelievable. Sad and I think PS too said this. She lost her childhood. Does she enjoy what she does? Does she get the true meaning of what she is speaking? Sorry to say but I think her parents seemed to have made her that robotic machine

PS: I am open to the possibility that this is the girl’s parents’ idea of play and learning and a good life, that they haven’t forced this upon her, and in that case I hope she’s happy doing this every day.

UB: Do kids enjoy study? Why send them to school? Do kids enjoy violin? Do kids enjoy when their kids are sent for Tennis classes against their will? These are just वितण्ड arguments really.

VN: UB… Why only kids even I don’t like to go to work… but at least I know why I have to go. I was just wondering if that little girl knows and understands what she is saying.

UB: Many things in school that we study, we do not know why we study. Only later, when we apply some of them, we really know. This is my वितण्ड वाद 😀

VN: But who knows when she grows up she may thank her parents for making her do this at least she would have memorised Geeta adhyays and won’t have to start late as many of us are doing😃

VB: How does memorizing translate to comprehension

UB: Yes VN – I cursed my father for sending me to Bala Vihar when I was a kid. And cursed him for making me memorize 15th, 16th and 12th chapter. But later, when I picked these up, because I had memorized these earlier, I could pick up the words, ideas,  etc a lot easier. Thus, memorization makes mind accept and assimilate the ideas later much more easily than to start seeing these for the first time when one is 50. This is been the basis of memorizing these concepts at a young age with the logic that since अध्यात्म learning is a life-long quest, digestion in early years will mean you can unpack each of these verses later in life at an appropriate age much more easily. Because of my earlier readings, when I have a doubt, my memory will lead me to the specific verse much faster than if I do not know the book at all. It is quite simple logic really. UB: When I chant nursery rhymes, do I know the meaning of these rhymes?  Even rhymes, for many movie songs that I hum, even today, I have no clue what they mean 😀. One Swamiji was saying that once a Malayali mother listened to his discourse and told him that she used to chant a Malayali lullaby to her child without knowing its meaning. But after listening to Swamiji, she realized that the lullaby was actually a very deep अध्यात्म principle and she was exhilarated to know it’s meaning now. Now imagine the benefit to the kid who also learns like this at a young age only to be unpacked later in life that will help him

VB: Good points.

PS: Well I was also going to point out the video shows everything that is wrong with the Indian education system, but decided against it.  However, it comes up anyway, so – my biased eyes see no joy emanating from the girl in the video.  Whether a kid enjoys study or learning music or playing tennis depends a lot on the teaching methods and the supportive environment around them, and how much they actually “learn” depends on how much they enjoy it.  No doubt they have to work very hard to achieve the highest levels, and every kid learns at a different pace, but that process is easier for someone who enjoys it as opposed to someone who doesn’t. The liking naturally propels them to push harder, that can also plateau at any point, so it requires proper nurturing.   Feel free to look up the latest research and experiments in teaching methods.  For the girl’s sake I hope she’s a beneficiary of some of these enlightened teaching methods.  That’s all.  The other component of my comment is whether she could be missing out on other aspects of a balanced life – which at her age is lots of time to play.   Does one know how many hours she spent memorizing the Gita every day?  I guess that will effectively put an end to this discussion, based on whether one thinks that is appropriate for a 3-8 year old.  I would bet it isn’t, but that’s just my biased view.

UB: It does not at all put an end since you have merely expanded your earlier view with more words. But I will leave it at that 😀😀

PS: Ok, knowing the number of hours she spends memorizing the Gita daily will end the discussion for me – if it is an hour or two daily at age 8, that is ok.  If it is a lot more, that is abuse in my book.   Especially if it takes away from other things that will help her lead an independent, healthy life when she’s older.

UB: Understand where you are coming from. Let me give a more serious answer. The reason these debates last is because we do not agree on the rules of the debate. Debates make sense when rules of engagement are consistent between both and agreed as the basis of debate. When this itself is not agreed, we end up having meaningless exchanges. अध्यात्म view is that life is a continuity. One who is a kid today was an old man earlier who lived a certain way. One is born in an ecosystem owing to one’s own कर्म. This idea was conveyed in Ch 8 and will come again in Ch 14. So it is not parents alone who may give good or bad parenting but it is the kid also who gets what he or she gets owing to his or her own कर्म. And further, अध्यात्म view is that life is meant for attaining अध्यात्म सिद्धि and that becomes the barometer for success in life. Your barometer is the modern liberal view of making kid independent later in life which also means kids should be allowed to play, think on their own. Implicit in this view is that memorizing Gita somehow takes one away from being independent. You are yearning for independence while अध्यात्म years for freedom. Therefore, these debates will not end. Debates are tenable when both agree on modern view as the basis to assess life or अध्यात्म view. When the basis is different, we should first debate on the basis first to reconcile ourselves and then debate about the child. Gita is a text that focuses on giving a basis to agree on अध्यात्म view as a perspective to view life. If one does not agree with this itself, then both can continue to live with these different दृष्टि freely but both will have to accept that the lifestyles each chooses will be different.  And this is absolutely fine in my opinion.

VB: Nicely summarized. And I love the last 2 sentences

PS: I am tempted to extend the definition of abuse, but expect to hear that the people suffering deserve it because of their कर्म.  I guess then we go back to the point that was brought up earlier – I paraphrase – if the Gita is so self-important that it allows for no other interpretations or points of view, especially ones that go against it, then effectively you shouldn’t be asking for any debate on any topic.  What is needed then is simply positive reinforcement from everyone on this thread, which some here provide regularly.  🙂

UB: Wrong argument again – Gita view is not self-important. Gita objective is freedom and evaluates everything as per this standard. The person in front can also possibly have freedom as the goal but have an alternate approach to freedom. For this, we need to define what freedom is. Most of Indian disciplines had such multiple approaches like अद्वैत, द्वैत, etc. Multiple approaches are indeed allowed. But if the person in front of you does not even agree on freedom as the goal, then any debate between them is meaningless. If someone applies methods of अध्यात्म to review science claims, will anyone accept it? No.  But that does that make scientific methods self-aggrandizing? Of course not. We are bringing emotions here instead of being objective, in my opinion.

UB: Also, this is a common argument against कर्म about people who suffer. But for people who enjoy also, it is कर्म. Kids having great parents is also कर्म and kids having abusive parents is also कर्म. And kids having well-meaning but stupid parents is also कर्म and kids having abusive parents but having good outcomes is also कर्म. Besides, it is interesting to learn here today that teaching Gita to kids is a form of abuse 😀 – this is very novel. Also, while suffering may have come on account of कर्म, to do action to get out of suffering is also कर्म. Selective application is a consistent problem in this space…..

UB: कर्म is not just to rationalize that others are sufferring on account of their कर्म thus stating that they deserve it. In fact, if others are suffering, if we can help, we should offer help –  that is our धर्म too. If we do not offer help when we can, then we will also incur appropriate परिणाम. But yes, when I am suffering, at least I know that this may be happening owing to something I may have done. By accepting this, I will not blame others alone for my misery. And equally, I will undertake कर्म to get out of misery.

PS: I accept your explanation re कर्म, but not the rest of your logic.  Nothing in my statements has objected to freedom as the goal, whatever your definition (not mine, note) of freedom may be.  Teaching anything useful to kids is mostly a good idea, even parts of Gita will do.  I am not objecting to that, I’m simply pointing out that I’m not impressed a 3 yr old was forced to start memorizing something that she finished by the age of 8.  Would people be just as impressed if it was Shakespeare or multiplication tables?  You seem to be defending the parents just because the Gita is involved.   So applying your logic re abuse, the girl must be well on her path to freedom since she has memorized the Gita?   Learning the Gita is not abuse, being forced to do something that doesn’t come naturally to an extreme is abuse.   Re science – why bring it up again – as far as I’m concerned it neither begs nor orders to be obeyed… any rational person can easily follow it and come to the same conclusions as other people interested in it, no matter their religion or country of origin or any other beliefs, and the only people who seem troubled by it everywhere are god-loving people…

UB: Great – let us take कर्म aside. As for you not being impressed, actually, just memory chanting does not impress me. If you scroll back, I never said I am impressed. I only said that what she liked is a verse from Ch 13 that we are doing now. As for her being forced, we do not know but I respect their decision as their personal decision. As long as the father is not teaching the kid to abuse or harm others, who is to say that Tennis is better or Gita. To each,  their own. I used science mainly as an analogy but if you think that word should be banned for use here,  I will stop it altogether. 😀 I will have to think of some other analogies like rules of football or chess. As for girl being on her path to freedom comment, I see this as a non-comment really. So no comments from me too. 😀As for only god fearing people being troubled by religion, watch Richard Dawkins. But those who are troubled on both sides are idiots. I will agree with you on that front.

PS: I said god-loving people being troubled by science, not “god-fearing people being troubled by religion” – loving vs fearing and science vs religion.

PS: As for the rest, we’ll agree that we all hope the girl will do well. No need to ban the word science… I enjoy it.  🙂

UB: 🙏🏼🙏🏼👍🏼👍🏼😀

PS: I don’t know what a non-comment is, but by the same logic, your comment “it is interesting to learn here today that teaching Gita to kids is a form of abuse” is a non-comment?  🙂

UB: 😀 Fair point. But what else do I say?  Do I say Yes to that comment or no. Who knows? But I see value coming out of it. But who knows. As long as their is no harm in it, it did not bother me. But anyway….. 🙏🏼🙏🏼

PS: It appears to me that there are opposing forces continuously in play – we are trying to achieve oneness with the universe (for lack of a better word) in the long term, but all along the process there is a strong undercurrent of detachment from that same universe in the present…

UB: If you could get time, do read the link on the write up on Creation by Swami Krishnananda who has stated that urge to expand the Universe or contract back into singularity was present right in the beginning of creation and the same urge expresses itself in all people today too. It articulates this aspect very well in my opinion

PA: This is exactly what I had heard from Eckart tolle in one his talks 👍👍

UB: https://youtu.be/bAOoFGCh1eY Probably another example of abuse by Indian parents 😀

PK: Very happy interesting discussion .. You bring up an interesting point of independence vs freedom departing them in a very unusual way (I always think of independence as freedom and to a large extent recognize in it my bias as a female raised in a partiachial society). I guess if I use your criteria ( as you are the first person who has explained it to me ) I have to admit that I do not but the kook-aid of the adhyatmic principle totally yet … a few parts but not in its entirety … some rules seem both arbitrary and / or harsh … my aim is to attempt to understand the Gita and in my head catalogue what I believe va don’t … that to be is the adhyatmic journey and I may be wrong … but your statement made me realize why I agree with PS with regard to being forced to learn Gita as being abuse if done for a prolonged fashion/ without interest etc etc … to me the spiritual journey is distinct from math skills … forcing it down a child only creates a society brainwashed and unable to think for themselves … I am skeptical of both the evangelical Christian who claims Christ is the only path to salvation and the Hindu who claims that adhyatmic principle is the only way … I object to the “only” and the reason I respect you UB is cosvyoy never say “only”

PK: I have already admitted my allure of the material world , it’s independence etc etc … if I am not seeking ” adhyatmic freedom” exclusively and in a Nirantar fashion , I am ok with it today … if I change my mind I am ok with it as well .. I worry when we teach such complex issues to kids … but that’s me and personally I will be totally ok if my kids do not do Nitya puja, bhajans etc etc … would be nice for them to know their roots and that’s what I tell them when I explain Hindu traditions …but religion to me is more culture than anything else .. spiritual growth is something entirely different and best left to adults (8 year old girls immersed in this to me are outliers and I hope that girl is wise but I cannot help worry that it is unlikely … nevertheless all I can do is hope that she is benefited). I truly believe more in boundaries of parenthood and who am I to tell her parents how to raise their child? I am free to have my opinions, even express them respectfully in certain situations but no right to impose 😃😃 and so I walk away shaking my head a little sadly)  … recognizing that her parents may probably shake their heads equally sadly looking at how raise my kids .., such is life … but I still like it and my independence 🙏🙏🙏🙏.. definitely today / this moment in my life a little more than adhyatmic freedom

PK: But let’s keep the debates going cos they make life interesting and unless we debate how are we ever even going to see the others point of view ? 🙏🙏🙏… the option of agree to disagree has never been an issue here and that’s what I cherish the most. Separating them not departing  in my first line …my fat fingers .. sigh

HB: Just wanted to add a point here. My father in law learnt full Gita and knew it by around 8 to 10 years. What we are contemplating as s force was actually s regular Samskar in typical Brahmin families some 80 years ago. But not all could achieve this. Many shlokas are learnt simply by hearing parents chant them. My son learnt many shlokas from his grand dad and it was not never enforced

UB: Thanks HB – I had a tough time today having to defend something that I thought was completely normal in a normal Hindu household. Questions felt as if I doing a serious wrong by teaching Shlokas to my kids. 😀😀😀

PS: If it is completely normal, why parade her on national tv in a saffron robe, how/why did that even come to be?  UB, your initial question was – “what do we make out of this girl?” You got varied answers. 🙂  Apologize for the tough time, hopefully it is still civil in your view…  🙏🏼🙏🏼

UB: Ok. The same reason why it is normal for all kids to go to school but only for toppers come on National TV

PA: I am amazed at the number of messages!!! Today a friend of mine told a really interesting thing. He said basically we are full and complete and any Guru or teacher only is able to make us Realize what we already are! The only thing that we have to afraid of is our own mind who and all the programming it acquires which keep telling us all wrong stories.

VN: Totally agree with you UB… As a school kid would always wonder how some students could get such good marks while some like me would have to slog it out😄😂

UB: 😀😀

PS: Finally UB, we are One!  Well played on the subtle shift in meaning, but still flawed.  While it is normal for toppers to appear on national tv, toppers by definition are not normal, they are at an extreme end of a distribution.  Glad to hear we agree about the girl…  😀😀😀

MK: Woke up to 121 messages today…wow what a discussion. UB, am going through a big battle of mind vs heart. What is the right thing to do ;))

UB: All of us here have deep respect for each other. So even if WA language is not up-to the mark once in a while, I assume that none of our lines can hurt each other. So let us enjoy these exchanges and occasional banter. 👍🏼😀

MK: Mozart was pushed by his father to become a maestro by 5…we see it all the time that the outliers are pushed by their tiger parent/s to work hard from the very beginning..whether they become top musicians/painters/tennis players/Geeta learner 😜

UB: Should I continue or should I pause? 😀

PS: Please continue, though my responses may be slightly delayed…  🙏🏼

HB: Toppers are at extreme end of a normal distribution.

PS: So?

VN: Many from this group used to be toppers… And they all appear to be normal… Yet😊

HB: U missed the word ‘normal’ as an integral part defining a characteristic being measured and yet u say that they are not normal

PS: We agree in principle – I used the word extreme as a deviation from normal meaning commonplace, when we were discussing the girl.  I seem to be missing a lot of things here according to you and VN.  🙂

HB: Oh 😧. I guess time for me to go underground for a century or so

PS: I guess then I’ll have to do the same… so please don’t.  🙂

VN: HB …😅

HB: 😂

PA: 👍😊

PK: There is no “normal” Hindu family  UB 😂😂Just a continuum of ” practicing / religious to practicing “lite” to non- practicing Hindu families 😃😃😃 Reminded me of the Tolstoy quote” happy family lies are all alike , every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way “

I am still pondering of how to juxtapose happy / unhappy families with practicing / non- practicing Hindu families 😂😂 Happy families are all alike … I hate this stupid autocorrect 😃😃

HB: And I was deeply pondering over its meaning😂

PK: ANNAMALAI SWAMI – FINAL TALKS

If there is no external light such as Bhagavan to guide you, you have to look within to find the Self. You will not benefit from looking anywhere else, from doing anything else, or from listening to any other voice. Walking round and round a temple, doing rituals to a deity— activities like these will not bring you any nearer to the Self. The pujas, the japas, the rituals – these are just for beginners. Meditation is the syllabus in a higher class. We need not waste our time by indulging in the activities of the infant class again and again. Here, in this class, I ask you to put all your attention, all your interest on realizing the final teaching: ‘I am not the body or the mind. I am Self. All is the Self.’This is Bhagavan’s final teaching. Nothing more needs to  be added to it. Keep good company while you pursue this knowledge and all will be well.

UB: 👍🏼😀👏🏼. I am a beginner 😀

PK: I am a beginner with a contrarian attitude .., fake it till you make it and all that 😃😃

Summary by PA
Verses 6 – 7
Shri Krishna begins the chapter by describing what is meant by the field and the knower of the field, kshetra and kshetrajnya. He then describes the field in detail by listing its modifications such as the great elements, the ego, the senses and so on (24 elements). These combine to form the body, or he field of actvities. (Kshetra).Now one can imagine the state of the soul trapped inside the body made of 24 elements.
Verses 8-12
A list of attributes or qualities that are needed in order to escape the influence of the field is given. These qualities include humility, lack of arrogance and so on. These qualities are termed as “jnyaanam” or means of knowledge. These verses describe the process of knowledge for understanding the knower of the field of activities.
Verses 13 – 18
The topic of the supreme self, brahman, the knower of the field or kshetrajnya, is taken up next. The “sat” or existence aspect of brahman is indicated first with attributes such as hands, legs and so on. The sat exists outside and inside of all living beings, moving and non moving. Because He is subtle, He is beyond the power of the senses to see or to know. Although far away He is also near to all.
Verses 20-30

The field and its knower are now explained from the point of view of the individualized self, jeeva by using the terminology of Purusha and Prakriti. Shri Krishna first defines these terms, points out their beginningless nature, and also points out how they become the cause of enjoyership and doership respectively. The fall of the immaculate supreme self is explained by the apparent relationship of Purusha and Prakriti due to ignorance of our true nature as the supreme self that resides as Ishvara in all bodies. Release from this ignorance leads to liberation.One who can see that all activities are performed by the body, which is created by material nature, and see that the self does nothing, actually sees. (verse 30). Mode of reaching Him. In order to get to a stage where we can discriminate or distinguish between the field and its knower, we have to go through a curriculum of saadhanaa or spiritual practice. Shri Krishna provides this roadmap of steps as karma, bhakti, raaja and saankhya yoga. The key thing, however, is to orient or attach ourselves to the imperishable Ishvara, and to detach ourselves from identification with Prakriti, which is the storehouse of all action and diversity.
Verse 34
The analogy of the sun is used to illustrate the knowledge, awareness and non-acting nature of the supreme self.

Verse 35
The chapter ends by asserting that the fruit of knowing the true nature of the supreme self (distinction between the field and knower of field) is moksha or liberation.
UB: Thanks PA for the summary – you have kept this focussed and simple. 👍🏼👍🏼
PK: 👌👌

HB: Very nice summary. 🙏🏼
MK: 👍🙏🙏👏 Very nice summary !!!
PA: Thanks guys the summary is not completely mine but combined from various sources, ideas and our discussions.  I am just a intermediate agent 🙏🙏🙏😊
HB: U are very modest 😊
PA: I know this has been a hot topic of discussion but still wanted to post the 24 elements making the field of material activities : “….The components of this world are earth, water, fire, air and ether. These are the five great elements (maha-bhuta). Then there are false ego, intelligence and the unmanifested stage of the three modes of nature. Then there are five senses for acquiring knowledge: the eyes, ears, nose, tongue and touch. Then five working senses: voice, legs, hands, anus and genitals. Then, above the senses, there is the mind, which is within and which can be called the sense within. Therefore, including the mind, there are eleven senses altogether. Then there are the five objects of the senses: smell, taste, form, touch and sound. Now the aggregate of these twenty-four elements is called the field of activity. If one makes an analytical study of these twenty-four subjects, then he can very well understand the field of activity. Then there is desire, hatred, pleasure and pain, which are interactions, representations of the five great elements in the gross body. The living symptoms, represented by consciousness and conviction, are the manifestation of the subtle body–the mind, ego and intelligence. These subtle elements are included within the field of activities. The five great elements are a gross representation of the subtle false ego. They are a representation in the material conception. Consciousness is represented by intelligence, of which the unmanifested stage is the three modes of material nature. The unmanifested three modes of material nature is called pradhana.” False ego is the mistaken believe that the self is also material – temporary
UB: 👍🏼 Important part of Ch 13