HB: When you quote Vyas for ahimsa or brahmachrya…. which work are u referring to ?

UB: व्यास is the name of the person who has written a commentary on the Sutra. In fact, no one reads the original Yogasutra without the commentary of व्यास

जातिदेशकालसमयानवच्छिन्ना: सार्वभौम महाव्रतम् ।। ३१।।

जाति – class, caste, occupation, देश – place, country of origin, काल – time, समय – circumstances, अनवच्छिन्ना: – unconditioned, unlimited by, सार्वभौमा – every place on Earth, महाव्रतम् – great vow

(These यम) are considered as महाव्रतम्. They are not exempted by one’s class, place, time or circumstances. They are universal.

These यम are non-negotiable for a योगी and there can be no excuses for not following any or all of them, whatever state one is in. पतंजलि is being emphatic here – there are no escape clauses 😊. While all our शास्त्र have more or less similar prescriptions since many millennia, however there is a tension between adhering to these fully or making exceptions based on one’s कुलधर्म, जातिधर्म, etc. So a fisherman has to kill fish while not killing other living beings while a क्षत्रिय kills during war or a ब्राह्मण kills during यज्ञ, etc. Even in the Gita, while अर्जुन refers to conduct of a योगी to refrain from war, none other than श्रीकृष्ण tells अर्जुन to go ahead and fight the war. So what must one do?

A sincere साधक will always look at bringing समन्वय across शास्त्र. Focus on what is common rather than getting confused with differences and doing nothing is not an option. Given that पतंजलि is clear that there are no exceptions to यम, one may see पतंजलि system is for an ascetic योगी to pursue योग as a full-time endeavour. Others like श्रीकृष्ण or मनु are not addressing needs of ascetic योगी alone while they too value योग completely. So मनु says that since हिंसा is inevitable no matter how hard one tries, one must indulge in पञ्चमहायज्ञ (मनुष्य यज्ञ, भूतयज्ञ, etc) and other प्रायश्चित कर्म to counteract the influence of हिंसा or असत्य we may have indulged. The daily सन्ध्या ritual has many मंत्र seeking प्रायश्चित for the हिंसा done throughout the day and night. श्रीकृष्ण method is to depersonalize the कर्म – “Whatever actions one does, do it as an offering to Me” or मामेकं शरणं व्रज.

So do not fight for revenge or eat as per need by avoiding gluttony, etc. Wherever and whatever one does, one offers the outcome to ईश्वर by saying कृष्णार्पणम्. Thus, when one does धर्म, one does the action not for satisfying desires of one’s ego but because one is in a state where the action is needed to be done. If ego goes away or minimized, any कर्म becomes depersonalized and thus the outcome does not accrue to the doer. Over time, by repeated practice of such a lifestyle, one can aspire to reach a stage that पतंजलि is demanding of a योगी or gets a birth into a body where practicing of यम becomes easier to follow.

One must note that if we consider ourselves as a साधक, following options may come to us depending on our संस्कार:

1. I will follow पतंजलि only or follow मनु only; or
2. Both are conflicting. I am confused. The authors are not clear or शास्त्र is outdated. Hinduism is too complex. Better to live and be merry than waste time in शास्त्र 😂. 
3. Given that both पतंजलि & मनु have similar respect for योग, despite a variation in emphasis, I will do समन्वय and follow to the best of my ability.

Just as when one plans a holiday, one does not have a full idea of the destination but still goes to the place to experience it fully, one may similarly take to योग in our own way. As we get deeper and deeper, if we remain sincere to the goal of योग, we will get answers to the contradictions between the शास्त्र and our own अनुभव will guide our conduct and actions.

HB: I love the concept of krishnarpan. But it’s slightly confusing . Does it mean krishna is the final judge of my actions or is it absolving oneself of all responsibilities?

UB: This is the whole basis of Ch 3 viz कर्मयोग. The famous कर्मण्येवाधिकारस्ते… is about this only. But yes – it is confusing. Krishna is not a judge. You are doing actions as per your धर्म and offer the outcome or benefit of that action to the Highest (or the पुरुष within). Then, whatever outcome happens, take it as ईश्वर प्रसाद – meaning you only take a little viz adequate to live life. Everything belongs to Krishna only and nothing is mine really – न मम. But yes – this is very difficult. Which is why whole of Ch 3 is devoted to this only

शौचसंतोषतप:स्वाध्यायेश्वरप्रणिधानानि नियमा: ।।३२।।

शौच, संतोष, तप:, स्वाध्याय and ईश्वर प्रणिधान are the नियमा

While यम is concerned with how a योगी engages with others, नियम is centered around one’s own personal discipline and practice. As per व्यास, शौच refers to cleanliness and includes both आंतरिक & बाह्य aspects. बाह्य शौच pertains to keeping body clean, consists of cleaning house with water and clay as well as गोबर and गोमुत्र (may not apply fully today given change in construction materials) and also eating सात्विक आहार in limited quantity. हरिहरानन्द adds here that eating meat and taking alcohol incite रजस् & तमस् while योग requires a सत्व mind. Says चरक in आयुर्वेद – “Whatever is good or most desired in this life or next is attained by intense concentration of the mind. Alcohol creates a disturbance in the mind and those blinded by addiction to alcohol lose sight of their best self-interest”. भोजराजा adds here that आंतरिक शौच (purifying mind of अशुचि in the form of jealousy, hatred, etc) is accomplished by exuding a friendly attitude towards all.

संतोष manifests as disinterest in accumulating more than one’s immediate needs of life. True happiness comes from संतोष with whatever one has, not thinking that one will be happy when one gets all that one desires. Says आदिशंकर – “Even if there is a lack, one thinks – it is enough”. And says हरिहरानन्द “To avoid injury from thorns, one only has to wear one pair of shoes – there is no need to cover the entire Earth with leather”.

तप is ability to tolerate hunger, thirst as well as all dualities of life (heat and cold, etc), avoid useless talk and to perform fasts. हरिहरानन्द says that योग requires one to tolerate sufferings of the body, ensure hardships and remain undisturbed by lack of physical discomfort. He cautions that inflicting hardship on the body (voluntary austerity & penance) can only be for reducing पापकर्म and will not directly help in acquiring ज्ञान.

स्वाध्याय refers to reading शास्त्र focussed on मुक्ति, repetition of ॐ here and devotional मंत्र. हरिहरानन्द says that by practicing this नियम, one’s desire for worldly objects diminishes and one’s taste for आध्यात्मिक ज्ञान rises. We have discussed ईश्वर प्रणिधान earlier. It is seen as a necessary नियम that a योगी must cultivate to move further ahead in the quest to attain पुरुष.

Says व्यास – “While lying down, sitting and wandering on the road, one who is focussed within and whose net of doubts has weakened, sees the seeds of संसार weakening. Such a person, always firm in योग, becomes eternally free and partakes in अमृतत्वम्”. He adds that it is from ईश्वर प्रणिधान that this can take place – obstacles are removed and one is able to realize the innermost चैतन्यम्.

वितर्कबाधने प्रतिपक्ष भावनम् ।।३३।।

वितर्क – negative thoughts, बाधने – on the harassing of, प्रतिपक्ष – the opposite, भावनम् – cultivation 

Upon being harassed by negative thoughts, one should cultivate counteracting thoughts.

What are वितर्क or negative thoughts? They are those which prevent a योगी from cultivating यम and engaging in नियम. And why does our mind take on to वितर्क? Our previous संस्कार, being our pre-existing ingrained habits, prevent us from taking on to a new lifestyle. But there is no need to berate oneself or get frustrated when वितर्क happens – deal with them insighfully. Consider consequences of continuing with pre-existing indulgences.

This is a useful सूत्र. A योगी is expected to be mindful of every action done by him/ her. As a योगी indulges in mindful ध्यान, one consciously adjusts the type of संस्कार one allows in one’s चित्त. Since our चित्त is like a warehouse of all संस्कार acquired over many lives, thoughts of any kind merely represent activation of previous संस्कार. Since संस्कार are never destroyed, the moment a योगी becomes aware of a perverse thought within one’s चित्त, one attempts to replace a राजसिक and/or तामसिक thought with a सात्विक thought. And just as weeds will always happen in a garden, a योगी needs to be constantly alert to negative संस्कार rearing their heads time and again to prevent him from taking on to यम & नियम.

वितर्का हिंसादय: कृतकारितानुमोदिता लोभक्रोधमोहपृर्वका मृदुमध्याधिमात्रा द:खाज्ञानानन्तफला इति प्रतिपक्षभावनम् ।। ३४।।

वितर्का – negative / perverse thoughts, हिंसा, आदय: etc. , कृत – performed, कारित – caused to be done, अनुमोदिता – allowed, लोभ, क्रोध, मोह, पृर्वका – preceded by, मृदु – mild मध्य – medium, अधिमात्रा – intense, द:ख, अज्ञान, अनन्त – never-ending, फला – end results, इति – thus, प्रतिपक्षभावनम् – opposite cultivation 

Negative thoughts are हिंसा, etc (असत्य, अशुचि…). They may be performed (by oneself), performed on one’s behalf by another, or authorized by oneself, they may be triggered by लोभ, क्रोध, मोह and they may be mild, moderate or intense. One should cultivate opposite thoughts, namely that the end results (of negative thoughts) are ongoing द:ख and अज्ञान.

This सूत्र is for a serious साधक. पतंजलि knows very well how the mind can come out with excuses, loopholes or leeways to justify indulgences that are against practice of यम & नियम. He has thus given here 27 possibilities (3*3*3) of how an aspiring योगी needs to watch his or her कर्म getting into a wrong track and avoid getting into a false sense of complacency while pursuing योग.

There is a line in मनुस्मृति that echoes the sentiment of this सूत्र “The one who gives permission (to eat meat), the one who butchers, the one who slaughters, the one who buys and sells, the one who prepares it, the one who serves it, to the eater – they are all killers”. भोजराजा says here that some dimwit may think that since हिंसा involved in killing is performed by someone else, then the consumer of meat avoids कार्मिक responsibilities. विज्ञानभिक्षु does not even support killing for special occasions allowed by the वेद.

Taking this further, if one inflicts हिंसा on पशु for love of their मांस or with an eye to profit from their skins, inflicts हिंसा on another when angry or thinking that indulging in हिंसा is one’s own धर्म or that it is allowed by शास्त्र, all of them will bear the consequences of their कर्म. And what are these consequences? दुःख & अज्ञान. As per मनुस्मृति, the word मांस can be broken into माम् + स (I become It) meaning that one who inflicts हिंसा on another will have हिंसा inflicted on him either in this or future lives. As a result of inflicting हिंसा on another, one’s own life forces are weakened in this life itself and thus one brings दुःख into one’s own life.

अज्ञान is also an outcome of thoughts contrary to prescriptions of यम & नियम. वाचस्पति states that हिंसा is the result of तमस् and perpetuating हिंसा increases तमस् of the चित्त. Real ज्ञान is thus covered up or gets hidden from our perceptions further. One becomes less likely to ponder the reactions of one’s हिंसा or other harmful activities and thus is less aware of the कार्मिक consequences one is creating for oneself. When negative thoughts are eliminated, a योगी begins to witness certain positive benefits and these indicate to a योगी that he is on the right course of योग. What are these benefits? This are relayed from the next सूत्र.

PA: One question regarding the 27 possibilities: it’s a combination of the 3 vices kaam Krodh lobh with what ..is not clear

PK: I think this 

The Himsa (violence ) is mental , verbal or physical (3) 

In three intensity – mild, moderate or severe 

Brought about / approved of by – moha, Libya ir Krodha (3) 

The various permutations come to 27 I believe

अज्ञान & दुःख are inevitable if हिंसा, असत्य, etc happen arising from कर्म done

1) by oneself

2) we reap the benefits of कर्म done by someone else or 

3) we authorize another to perform कर्म on our behalf 

if the कर्म is triggered by

1) लोभ, 2) क्रोध & 3) मोह

and the intensity behind the कर्म may be

1) mild,  2) middling and 3) severe

The above can thus generate 3x3x3 possibilities

PK: Commentary by Paul Harvey: “ Negative reasoning such as harming and the rest; may be done, brought about, or by approval; is preceded by greed, anger or delusion; may be mild, moderate or intense; its infinite fruits are suffering and ignorance; thus cultivate the opposite side.”

PA: Ah ok now it’s clear 👍🙏🙏

अहंसाप्रतिष्ठायां तत्सन्निधौ वैरत्याग: ।।३५।।

अहंसा, प्रतिष्ठायां – upon the establishment, तत् – his, सन्निधौ – in the presence, वैर – enmity, त्याग – giving up of

In the presence of one who is established in अहिंसा, enmity is abandoned.

Many of our शास्त्र are not seen as unalterable words of God that one has to follow blindly. योगशास्त्र, in particular, is a practical manual and it wants its readers to practice योग using “Trust and Verify” principle. Even God will not be trusted if He does not give principles by which we can verify the accuracy of His statements 😂 – that is the spirit of the शास्त्र. So a question may arise – “What is the benefit I will get by following अहिंसा? or How do I know that अहिंसा is helping me?”. This सूत्र gives a response to this question.

Enmity is abandoned – when we abandon enmity towards others, others too will not have reasons to look at us as an enemy. In the पुराण, we hear accounts of certain आश्रम where the traditional rivals like dog & cat, snake-rat or elephant-lion abandon their enmity. Take this either at face value or take it that animal instincts are not displayed by people living in the आश्रम. Such accounts are seen in the accounts of Western mystics or of recent गुरू’s like श्री रमण महऋषि in whose presence, animals like snakes, etc moved around without harming anyone. Perverse thoughts like that of हिंसा can take subtle forms in the mind that are not visible. When a योगी practices अहिंसा, the सत्व in his own gets enhanced and this quality then rubs off on his or her associates. If we are able to therefore practice अहिंसा, over time, there will not be people around us who see us as their enemy.

सत्यप्रतुष्ठायाम् क्रियाफलाश्रयत्वम् ।। ३६।।

सत्य – truthfulness, प्रतुष्ठायाम् – be established, क्रिया – work, फल – fruits, आश्रयत्वम् – the nature of being a support or basis 

When one is established in सत्यम्, one endures fruition of actions.

This is an interesting सूत्र. A person being with सत्य at all times has control over what he says. And if one has control over what one says, one has control over what one thinks. And if one is established in सत्यम् even in thought, such a one is able to control what one experiences. And since this one only talks what is truth and shuns untruth, the words of such a person will not get wasted – they will bear fruit. While व्यास says that whatever such a person utters becomes true (and we are reminded of events of various ऋषि in the पुराण which come to fruition), हरिहरानन्द adds such a योगी does not make whimsical or fruitless statements beyond the reach of their power, that is, their will.

सत्यम् is cultivated by willpower – the determination to always align thought, word and deed with धर्म. This power of simple truth can sway the mind of the listener to act according with the words of a योगी. And when one comes into contact with a योगी established in सत्यम्, one senses this person has no desire or inclination to exploit or manipulate others for personal interest. Such a person is qualified to act as गुरू and one can entrust oneself in his guidance. वाचस्पति brings a nuance to understand this सूत्र. By ensuring fruition of actions, he understands पतंजलि as saying that a योगी who has perfected the यम of सत्यम् has control over all his actions and consequently, the fruits they bear in future births.

अस्तेयप्रतिष्ठायां सर्वरत्नोपस्थानम् ।। ३७।।

अस्तेय – refraining from stealing, प्रतिष्ठायां – upon the establishment, सर्व – all, रत्न – jewels, उपस्थानम् – approach, come into the presence of

When one is established in अस्तेयं, all jewels manifest

पतंजलि uses colourful language here. When one is established in “not coveting” what belongs to others, रत्न approach him from all directions. Another way to put this is “If you are established in not wanting anything, you will have everything” 😊. We hear accounts of saints like विद्यारण्य, a 13th century शंकराचार्य of श्रृगेरी मठ who directly experienced “everything” when he took संयास. And this line is not to be seen as empty ‘feel-good’ blabber since journey of योग is a journey towards पूर्णत्वम् and while an objectified mind is condemned to live in a state of “lack”, पुरुष state is a state of abundance.

When one reaches a state of “not wanting” or “not coveting”, a glow of detachment and indifference radiates from the face of a योगी at all times. And people around him sense the presence of a person who is trustworthy and has absolute integrity, they bestow their most valued things on such a योगी. They become confident that He will make the best selfless use of such wealth. He attracts the best of human beings and is offered the best of material things by those he or she inspires. One probably experiences a feeling of abundance even when they do not possess anything – an interesting state to be in 😊

ब्रह्मचर्यप्रतिष्ठायां वीर्यलाभ: ।।३८।।

ब्रह्मचर्य, प्रतिष्ठायां – upon the establishment, वीर्य – potency, power, लाभ – gain 

Upon the establishment of ब्रह्मचर्य, वीर्य (power) is attained.

ब्रह्मचर्य imparting powers, mystical and physical, is an age-old idea. विज्ञानभिक्षु understands वीर्य as power of ज्ञान & क्रिया. भोजराजा speaks of वीर्य as imparting vigour to one’s body & mind. हरिहरानन्द says that ब्रह्मचर्य prevents loss of vitality and thus वीर्य (potency) is retained. This accumulates until it culminates in physical and spiritual powers. In आयुर्वेद, ओजस is the subtle vital energy that forms the essence of सप्तधातु and along with प्राण controls the life functions. It is an essential ingredient in vigour and potency, both physical and spiritual. And when semen is dissipated in excessive orgasmic activity, body and immune system become deprived of vital resource and individual becomes susceptible to psychosomatic ailments.

A literal translation of the word ब्रह्मचर्य is “walking in the steps of ब्रह्म”. ब्रह्म or पुरुष (as used by पतंजलि) is attained by one who is fully focussed on his or her धर्म and thereby detached from all other distractions. And if one lives such a focussed life, one is actually following ब्रह्मचर्य. हरिहरानन्द therefore says that ब्रह्मचर्य involves abstaining even from thoughts of objects of desire through a firm control of one’s mind, as well as through a controlled diet and sleep. ब्रह्मचर्य cannot be attained for one who indulges in too much sleep or food intake.

अपरिग्रहस्थैर्ये जन्मकथंतासंबोध: ।।३९।।

अपरिग्रह – refraining from possessive conduct, स्थैर्ये – constancy, on the steadfastness, जन्म – birth, कथंता – the “how-ness”, संबोध – knowledge 

When अपरिग्रह becomes firmly established, knowledge of the why’s and wherefores of birth manifests

This is a bold claim. While अस्तेय is about not coveting what others own, अपरिग्रह means not being possessive of what one oneself owns. “न मम” (Not mine) is suggested as the words to be uttered on a continuous basis with respect to all objects/ relationships that we perceive as belonging to us. As per भोजराजा, अपरिग्रह involves not coveting the means of enjoyment viz the body.

When one desires enjoyment, one’s चैतन्यम् is directed outward. But when the awareness is not dissipated externally (driven by need for retaining our possessions), it can be channelled internally into one’s चित्त where संस्कार are recorded. And when awareness is not limited to bodily organs of sight, clairvoyance is developed. By accessing these संस्कार, the योगी then gets awareness of past actions that led to the current birth. The योगी is able to perceive precisely how the present birth is the consequence of previous activities and how the present activities will fructify in the form of a specific future birth.

शौचात् स्वाङ्गजुगुप्सा परैरसंसर्ग ।। ४०।।

शौचात् – from cleanliness, स्वाङ्ग – one’s own body, जुगुप्सा – distaste, परै: – with others, असंसर्ग – cessation of union or contact 

By cleanliness, one (develops) distaste for one’s body and cessation of contact with others.

शौचम् makes one focus on cleaning the body which makes us reflect on the nature of the body. One then realizes that body is continually accumulating sweat, urine, etc and makes one become aware of obnoxious aspects of one’s own body. Then, distaste for it arises which may then extend to others too. There is a पौराणिक कथा of a king who falls for beauty of a योगिनी and proposes to her. She asks the king to return after a few days – meanwhile, she takes laxatives, vomits, purges her body of fat and collects all discharges in a pot. When the king returns, he sees a worn-out woman holding a pot and when he asks her about the woman he saw earlier, she replies that she is the same woman whom the king saw earlier though some part of her is in the pot too 😊. The embarrassed king returns home, hopefully a wiser man.

While the ascetic traditions use strong भाषा to cultivate distaste for the body, their intent is to address tendencies within us to carry pride and love for our body, spend money to beautify it, decorate it, etc. All these कर्म tend to divert attention from the main object of focus of योग viz focus on पुरुष. This does not however mean that to show distaste for the body, one must live in untidy places or keep the body dirty and say that “I am not the body” – शौचम् means while we make efforts to keep ourselves clean, that very process must make us reflect on the body obsession and use this reflection to move towards योग.

Negative भाषा used by ascetic परंपराs for the body can be discomforting. Practice of शौचम् can be explained in a positive way too. In families where संस्कृति remains the trigger behind day to day बोलचाल, when they see a 5 year old girl with pleasant fragrance and wide eyes, they will express that the beauty of बाला त्रिपुरसुन्दरी is manifesting through this girl. When someone shows विनम्रता or वीर्य, they will see आंजनेय रूप in such a person. Ascribing all the best things – बुद्धि to श्रीगणेश, रौद्र to नृसिंह, दया/ लज्जा to देवी, संपन्नता of श्री, protective spirit to दुर्गा, etc., means that we are always conscious of विभूति शक्ति of परमात्मा (Gita – Ch 10) manifesting as the best in all of us. And शौचम् needs to be therefore followed so that the विभूति शक्ति of परमात्मा continues to manifest through our body. And we will simultaneously realize that without शौचम्, the body becomes unable to express the beauty of देवी thus becoming aware of limitations of the body. This orients us towards परमात्मा so as to attain a state of पूर्णत्वम् from where we can exhibit His विभूति eternally.

Why should शौचम् lead to असंसर्ग viz ceasing to be with others? And given that man is a social animal, why should पतंजलि see असंसर्ग as a positive? If योग will turn us into a loner, why pursue योग? We need to be careful here – this will be conveyed later in the day.

HB: There is a story of Ramdas swami. Someone gave him kheer in bhiksha. When he ate it, he loved it so much that he wanted more. Realized he was trapped … so vomited it and ate it again and again to develop a revulsion towards it to such a extent that he never wanted it again

UB: 👍 So many stories

HB: Vasana is the root cause of all miseries. Loved the story of yogini

Light up a दीप and cover this with a pot. The सौंदर्य of the दीप is no longer available for our अनुभव. When the pot changes from having an earthern body (तमस्) to a translucent one (रजस्), the दीप is visible in a hazy manner and when it becomes transparent (सत्व), one is able to see the beauty of the दीप. But a direct अनुभव of the दीप requires a प्रत्यक्ष दर्शन. When one makes a small hole, not only is the दीप directly visible, one also gets mild access to the warmth of the दीप as well as its सुगंध. Thus, an अनुभव does not mean just seeing (like a movie) but a melting of our persona with what we see (like warmth becoming accessible to us). Holes on the pot or removal of the pot facilitate such an अनुभव.

Coming to योगसूत्र, शौचम् makes us see our external body & mind as a cumulation of substances, a compound substance, with physical aspects taken from Earth while mind being a cumulation of संस्कार. When we see others or ourselves in the mirror, what we “see” is not a प्रत्यक्ष अनुभव since what we see is not the real substance. Just as दीप is hidden by the pot, body & mind distract us from an अनुभव of the पुरुष. A योगी will cease to have contact with people who see their own reality as substances made up of गुण and thereby live life superficially.

But when does the true beauty of a person shine? When अस्मिता, राग & द्वेष are negated or made dormant, the pot develops a hole and the पुरुष becomes visible/ accessible. This is why one may say that if even a राक्षस display sparks of धर्म once in a while (like मारीच and कुंभकर्ण in श्रीरामायण), this happens not because of any सुकर्म they do, but because in those moments, they have been able to shed their त्रिगुण and their inner beauty becomes व्यक्त on its own. Once the श्रीरमण आश्रम inmates expressed joy that a dreaded thief of the town died, श्रीरमण told them that the thief used to have two baths daily and keep himself and his house clean everyday 😊.

What is sugarcane? The outer stick or the juice within it? What gives a sugarcane an identity is the juice within it. Take the real essence away viz the juice and the cane will not have any self-worth. Thus, while the essence or सार is not व्यक्त (visible) when we see a sugarcane, there is no identity or substance of a sugarcane other than its सार. And even a child drinks the सार from a sugarcane rather than hanging on to the bagasse. Similarly, by practice of शौचम्, योगी attains दृष्टिशुद्धि making him have दर्शन of the सार within all (viz पुरुष) which manifests when “others” shed their राग, द्वेष, etc (ie pot develops a hole 😊). Thus, he develops विवेक which prevents him from getting distracted by the outer compound substance (viz गुण + संस्कार) that covers all the life forms

PK: But don’t you think these stories / examples are extreme ? Yogini and Ramdas? Does salvation have to come at such extreme – is it necessary or to some folks thrive on extreme discipline / subjecting their body to voluntary suffering? Such stories do nothing for me unfortunately 😃😃😃.. seems like self-torture for a realization that should come with grace but what do I know? The concept of cleanliness and purity is awesome and well taken .. no arguments there ..I think it had to do with how treachery’s present their view point / experiences .. and that’s why some teachers become better role models than others for different folks .. anyway 😃😃.. sometimes we have to soldier on taking the points that work and leaving  those that do not resonate ..

HB: There are all types of stories … there is a story or Narada and poor farmer. By doing your work, you can be karmayogi. U don’t have to do intense tapascharya or follow brahmacharya etc etc

UB: Hahahaha – the idea this Madam. One may be happy with Kaju Katli until they taste Rosagulla. Once latter is tasted, former is given up. But once Gulab Jamun is tasted, both the other two are given up. But once one aspires for curd rice, all others will be given up 😊😊😊. Idea is – till we know what is the best, we will settle for the not-so-best and still derive bliss from the not-so-best. That is the idea here. And one always gives up something to get something better. I took up Commerce means I gave up Engineering or Medicine. If I choose Banking, I gave up working for a manufacturing company. If I spend the day watching IPL, I am giving up watching movies. Question is – is what I am spending time on is more valuable than  what I am giving up. And if पुरुष attainment means all these will also remain (Kaju Katli, Gulab Jamun..) and a lot more is attained, why not seek it? Why settle for Western Ghats when one can attain Everest? That is the idea. Challenge is that while Yogini is clear on what she is seeking, we are not sure whether this giving up is worth it or not. If anything, Yogini is more ambitious or dare I say, most ambitious of all. Hence, she is giving up on the lower (as per her)  😊😊. I made a choice to marry A. But that I means I gave up probability of marrying X or Y or Z (and vice versa of course 😊😊). But while all choices in the प्राकृतिक state are relative and made based on our own संस्कार, the decision to seek पुरुष is meant to be seeking to return to our own true state. It is not a relative “also” choice, it is a choice of absolute पूर्णत्वम्. In that state, one is complete and full. That is the idea expressed in the texts and with that intent and purpose, the texts are written. Now whether it is true or not is a separate question but that has been the claim of all these texts and people who follow these texts for centuries.

PK: Fully accept your point – we need to give something up many times for better things/ outcomes/ possibilities 😃😃😃.. ]. However one can give up sweets without such extreme antics of throwing up etc.. reminded me if anorexics who we would treat with psychiatric meds that’s all ( vs folks to emulate 😃) .. to keep bad examples .. pathological vs inspiring 😃

UB: 😊 I’ll rest my case 🙏

PK: Very true .. I don’t think either intense tapas nor brahmacharya  is my cup of tea😃😃.. my work I can do with passion and dedication .. so maybe there is hope .. I am in no rush. Life is intrinsically good the way I see it .. problems arise and one deals with it to the best of one’s ability and strength. I think these are all paths and folks gravitate to those that align with their innate nature / sanskars .. it’s not a one size fits all but more of personalization 😃😃 The yogini story also felt exaggerated to me . All she needed to say was “ rich kingly dude , I am happy with my life , sorry but not interested 😂” . Why did she have to torture herself by losing half her body weight so he would kearn that a when a Roman says no , she means no 😂😂 I do not see the point to inflict suffering on oneself in order to get rid of suffering / attain everlasting bliss – the whole point seems contradictory and hence these stories lose my interest.. but the underlying value of importance of Clarity and purity of body and mind is very valid and could be made with better anecdotes  .

UB: Hahahaha – Yogini story is still bothering you. Priya – this is a king after all. Do you think he will give us when she says she isn’t interested? Isn’t it very naive to think so? In modern India few days back, a girl was killed for rejecting the overtures of a man. Acid attacks are done by both men and women for cases of love spurned. So the Yogini way is the least harmless and most effective 😊. Besides, for slimming, one of the therapies suggested is vomiting. People follow this willingly. Our Yogini merely took that idea a “little further” to get rid of that pest.

Second, when you use the expression that the Yogini is suffering, what do you mean by the use of the word “suffer” here? We “suffer” with a 18 hour work schedule to clear medical exams. An athlete “suffers” for years to secure an Olympic medal. A climber subjects the body to continuous ‘suffering” to climb Everest. What is “suffering” unless one gets the perspective that this so-called “suffering” is to attain something higher. If it applies for petty aspects like Everest and stupid medal, same logic should apply for the highest, is it not? 😊😊

PK: Losing weight by vomiting is pathological Uday , Period .Anybody who says otherwise is being facetious or is wrong . The degree by which women do it varies but again by its very action, it is dumb and unhealthy. Yes it does Uday ( yogini story) 😂😂.. I am a feminist through and through despite all the teaching by you that we are all the same 😃😃.. understand it in concept but unable to see it applied in real life except probably by few men , many of whom are in this group so we are lucky in that respect. I concur that women have felt powerless against powerful men for a long time but neither does that make it right nor does it endorse the need for the woman  to subjugate or sacrifice herself in fear .. we need to have a world where a woman’s NO means NO . I will admit that I will work towards and wish for that more intensely than salvation 😀

We will rest this cos I think I have beaten this horse to death 😀😀. Like I said I truly see the value of clarity and purity in appearance , actions and thoughts 🙏🙏🙏

UB: I see the act of the Yogini has the ultimate expression of feminism 😊. Sure – let us move on 🙏

PK: 😃👍🙏.. a  mild agree to disagree 😃.. we have not had those in a while